Jude Barber: 00:00

I remember sitting having a you know, when we were literally conceiving this project thinking, I have never seen a woman with gray or white hair on a platform talking about architecture, and I have seen hundreds and hundreds .

Jude Barber: 00:12

I was very studious, you know, went to

Jude Barber: 00:13

all the lectures. I'd not seen or read or heard or, you know, you know, I don't care about Zaha Hadid, of course, incredible architect, but, you know, she she was having to kinda carry the can for everyone. And actually, we thought, no, let's let's let's let's talk to these women, and so do it in a way and it's a very simple concept, voice to experience. It's bringing together older voices with younger voices, to talk about their work.

Fay Young: 00:46

Welcome to this third series of If Glasgow's Walls Could Talk. I'm Fay Young, and I'm very pleased to be hosting, today's episode, which raises an important and and perhaps provocative question. If Glasgow's walls could talk, how often would they tell the stories of the talented women architects who helped to make and shape our built environment? And it's a great question to be asking on International Women's Day, because this podcast recording just happens to be falling on the annual date when we celebrate the achievements of women worldwide, often telling their stories for the first time. And this year's campaign theme is hashtag #inspireinclusion , and it seems a perfect fit for today's guests.

Fay Young: 01:43

Two successful women architects with a mission to reveal and celebrate the contributions women make to our built environment. So a very warm welcome to you, Jude Barber and Nicola McLachlan from Collective Architecture, an award winning practice with studios in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dundee. And what seems to me a a a very distinctive way of doing business, built on ethical principles. So welcome. And, you're here to talk about voices of experience, a truly inspiring project to investigate and celebrate the untold stories of legendary women.

Fay Young: 02:34

But perhaps we could start with you telling us a little bit about yourselves and what brought you into architecture. Jude, do you want to to go ahead?

Jude Barber: 02:45

To start. Yeah. Thank you, Faye, and thanks for that lovely introduction. Yeah, we're really delighted to be here today. And, yeah, getting into architecture, it's interesting that you asked that because in voice of experience, this is one of the questions that we ask all our participants, actually.

Jude Barber: 02:59

So it's really interesting to be getting this, sort of put back to us. I suppose for from my point of view just to start, I mean, I, I just loved making things. I just really was always drawing and making, and so as a younger person, it felt natural that that would be something that I might want to continue to do in terms of a career. And I was very fortunate that my parents and, my family and and my teachers were all very kind of open to thinking about what that might look like and feel like. But I was also very mindful about, you know, having a a vacation, getting sort of a a job at the end of whatever I was gonna do and train to be.

Jude Barber: 03:37

So architecture kind of felt like a really positive path. So I was although I didn't really know any architects, it was something that kind of came through discussion with with those people that were supporting me in that way.

Nicola McLachlan: 03:49

And, Nick, can I Yeah? For me, I suppose it was it was a little different. I hadn't really ever considered, I suppose, what my career would be or even thought about it in the past. I think I've just been given a lot of really exciting opportunities, from from being in high school right up to even just now. So I I I think, for me, it was just taking opportunities when they came and, yeah, making connections, I think.

Nicola McLachlan: 04:20

I started off doing my work experience at school in the building control offices and was given an opportunity to go and visit an architect's practice in Dunoon and, I hadn't really planned that. And then my art teacher also recommended me to go up to Chris Stewart Architects, which is now Collective to Architecture. And this was back in 2006 for a day trip. And one thing led to another, and I was offered a job as an architectural technician, straight out of school. So my pathway wasn't really planned, but it was just some really fortunate opportunities into architecture and then sort of the rest is history, I think.

Fay Young: 04:59

Yeah. Isn't it interesting how chance can open up opportunities?

Nicola McLachlan: 05:04

Yeah.

Fay Young: 05:04

And, yeah, I suppose career paths at school are often, well, not as positive as yours sounds to have been. So that was that was a lucky break, I guess. But it also required you to be open to, you know, what was what was, being offered, I guess.

Nicola McLachlan: 05:27

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Jude Barber: 05:29

And it also shows how education is so important because you also did the part time course, which, again, wouldn't have been, something that had happened, you know, several decades ago. This is something that that that now people can do and and peer, practice with with learning. So yeah. Yeah. I was

Nicola McLachlan: 05:44

just very, very fortunate to be given that opportunity.

Fay Young: 05:46

And so that for for you both, leading on to, where you are now in Collective Architecture, Was that a a reasonably steady progress? Or

Jude Barber: 06:01

Well, I mean, for me, I'd come from, other architectural practices, before coming to what was Chris Stewart Architects established by Chris Stewart in 1997. So I joined the practice kind of about 20 years ago. And it always had a, you know, a kind of value system, you know, built in around kind of listening to communities, participation, you know, a kind of strong sustainability, you know, environmental sort of strand. I don't think Chris is very committed to with others. But over the time as well, we've we've moved into a full sort of employee ownership model.

Jude Barber: 06:38

So every single person here, 50 of us, owns and has agency over the business and what happens there. So, you know, the core kind of themes around, you know, that we like to work to are sort of social responsibility, design, and innovation. You know, you always want to be doing interesting things, and kind of fairness and equity so that everybody everyone that contributes to the business kind of shapes it and drives it. And, that's that's a really founding kind of principle, isn't it?

Fay Young: 07:04

Yeah. The website shows lovely smiling faces, so it looks like a good happy place. Nicola, you joined more recently. Is that

Nicola McLachlan: 07:16

right? 8 years? I suppose I joined again, I suppose, permanently, about 8 years ago, but I originally joined back in 2,006. Oh. So just before actually it became Collective Architecture.

Nicola McLachlan: 07:31

And so I was lucky to be part of that process back then. So I think we became Collective Architecture and employee owned in 2007. But since then, I mean, the practice has really supported my education and my career, and I've always sort of been in touch with the practice since then. And then, yeah, joined in back in 2015, I think it was, just before we opened up our Edinburgh studio. Ah,

Jude Barber: 07:57

I think it's interesting because we were both we're both there's sort of 20 years almost between us, but we're both directors now. We both got made directors very young in our career as well.

Jude Barber: 08:05

So I

Jude Barber: 08:05

think that's kind of interesting. Yes. Her kind of practice model, what it what it does for in and around women and their careers.

Fay Young: 08:12

Yes. Yes. So that is, inspiring for thought that that it's possible to to make progress in that kind of way, and with support as well. So, you know, you're successful and and you're part of a practice that encourages women to be successful, obviously, women and men, But when did you become aware that that's perhaps not the the usual experience?

Nicola McLachlan: 08:43

It's an it's interesting for me to think about that actually because my experience in practice was starting, like I said, 2006 at Collective Architecture or Chris Stewart and then Collective Architecture. And and by that point, Chris Stewart Architects Collective Architecture was actually already had a good gender balance by that time. So my initial experience in, practice, I I didn't it it wasn't obvious that, you know, there was a gap because it was quite fair. And the same in education, you know, the students that are coming in are it's about a 50:50 split with men and women. But it wasn't really until the end of my education and until, in fact, voices of experience, to be quite honest, that I started to reflect on experienced women in practice, the gaps there, and also just what my education looked like and reflecting on how many books I had that were all based on male architects, architects, and and all and all about them.

Nicola McLachlan: 09:49

And and I think, it really wasn't until Voice's of experience really highlighted that there is a gap. And and, I mean, Jude, you've said some absolute cracking things that I'll just never forget about, you know, why voices started and what encouraged you to

Fay Young: 10:02

Yeah. To you

Jude Barber: 10:04

and Suzanne.

Jude Barber: 10:04

I mean, I think, you know, you do this long enough, and you see it all, and you hear it all. And I think there comes a point where, you know, I think for myself and Suzanne Ewing, who is one of the, you know, key co-founder with with with Nicola and myself, myself and Suzanne met, for a coffee actually because as a practice, we got involved in talking around gender imbalance in the profession. Because as Nicola says, although we both were fortunate to be in practices where there are, you know, men and women working cooperatively together, when we sort of popped our head above the path and looked around and, you know, we would sit in meetings and you sit in forums and you would, you know, see that kind of imbalance playing out more broadly. You know, you you start to ask questions. You know, why is this so stagnant?

Jude Barber: 10:52

Why is this so static? Why is this not changing? And I think there's a startling statistic for us, back in oh, god. It must have been about 2007. Building design did a campaign, 50:50 campaign for gender balance in architecture.

Jude Barber: 11:05

And at that time, only 13% of architects, qualified architects were women. However, you know, as Nicola said, 50:50 were going through the education system. So the the question is, where do the women? You know, why are we not staying in the profession? And that's just obviously a systemic issue, as to why women would be dropping out.

Jude Barber: 11:24

So I think one of the things that myself and and Suzanne did, we met for for a coffee and just talked about this. You know, why is this happening? And she was also saying in academia, it's no better. Yeah. It's a sort of a broad ranging issue.

Jude Barber: 11:39

And so we did that, and then later on when, there was the festival of architecture in 2016, I suppose we met again to talk about why the program had so few women in it. I mean, like, a dearth of women in it. The few token people mentioned. And what we were gonna do about it and and and and positively at the same time, Andy Summers and others were developing the idea of an architecture fringe, which would be sitting in parallel, to the side of the main festival and allowing other voices and other projects, to come through, that year. And so we together, Sam, Nicola, herself, we all set out and we concocted a project called, voices of experience.

Jude Barber: 12:23

We said, let's do something really positive about this. Let's not moan about what's not happening. Let's try and find out what is happening, and let's make those connections. And Suzanne had had worked in an arts council, had heard about new people like Christine Borland, Margaret Richards, you know, names I didn't know. And, one one of the things that Nicola is highlighting was I remember sitting having a you know, when we were literally conceiving this project thinking, I have never seen a woman with gray or white hair on a platform talking about architecture, and I have seen hundreds and hundreds

Jude Barber: 12:58

I was very studious when I went to all

Jude Barber: 12:59

the lectures. I'd not seen or read or heard or, you know, you know, I don't care about Zaha Hadid, of course, incredible architect. Yeah. But, you know, she she was having to kinda carry the can for everyone, so I think and actually, we thought, no, let's let's let's let's talk to these women.

Jude Barber: 13:14

And so do it in a way and it's a very simple concept, voice to experience. It's bringing together older voices with younger voices, to talk about their work.

Fay Young: 13:25

Yeah. Yeah. It it's such a wonderful simple. In fact, it makes me think it should be used in every industry and every profession.

Jude Barber: 13:35

Yeah. Well, we'd love to roll out so we can maybe talk about Yeah. We do. Yeah. And and I think in a way for us as well, another thing that's important as well about, voice experience is, we are focusing, obviously, on women, but we're really talking about women's work.

Jude Barber: 13:49

Ah. We're talking about the contributions and their work as architects, as designers, as landscape architects, engineers, as clients, as commissioners. And to really understand that, that landscape of how we actually make places. So, you know, as Nicola was saying, you know, the hero books, the starkitext, the the singular genius, Much of the project kind of debunks that myth, and it is a myth. You know, it is an absolute myth that a singular person is There's no doubt that our creative, inspiring people out there of all genders and all.

Jude Barber: 14:21

But, you know, this notion that we do it on our own, with somebody, you know, a bolt of lightning vision is is is not a truth. Yeah. And I think that there's often contributions made across, you know, ranges, spectrums about, and I suppose what we are trying to do with the project is just to uncover uncover those things and tell those stories.

Fay Young: 14:43

Yeah. Yes. What what about you, Nicola, in terms of just making those connections and and contacts? What was it for you that would seem to be important in in opening up conversations with with experienced women who weren't getting the chance to to get a word in edgeways.

Nicola McLachlan: 15:05

I I think when Suzanne just started talking about it, I just couldn't believe. I hadn't thought about it before. Like, it was our real moment. I was like, Jesus. Where are these women?

Nicola McLachlan: 15:17

You know? And and I just I just wanted to join Jude and Suzanne on that investigation. And so I I immediately was like, absolutely. Let me get involved. I'll be, you know, your younger participant.

Nicola McLachlan: 15:30

And yeah. I mean and then and through this, I was paired up with Margaret Richards. And, I mean, I've said to you before, Fay, but it has completely changed my life. It's the the project is absolutely fantastic and and and incredible and has sort of given us so much more than just trying to find out about these women's career. It's opened up friendships.

Nicola McLachlan: 15:52

It's opened up just so many stories and so many really, really amazing experiences for us and others. And it's growing. It's it's continuing to grow. It's amazing. Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 16:06

Yeah. Well, we'll talk we'll talk

Fay Young: 16:08

a wee bit more about how that actually works, because I think that's really interesting too. But were you one of the first, pairs, you and Margaret and Yeah. And yes. So had how was that how did it develop then? What was it like on your first meeting?

Nicola McLachlan: 16:30

Well, I'll never forget meeting Margaret for the first time. She came to our Edinburgh studio to meet Jude and I, and she walked in and, woah, was she serious, wasn't she?

Fay Young: 16:42

Yeah. Oh,

Nicola McLachlan: 16:43

formidable. Yeah. Really. She was

Fay Young: 16:45

Really? Really?

Nicola McLachlan: 16:46

Yeah. She was oh, it's incredible. I'll honestly never forget it. She walked in, she sat down. She said, I want to be clear here.

Nicola McLachlan: 16:52

I'm not anti men. And we were like, well, no. We are not anti men either. We could not do what we do without men. Absolutely.

Nicola McLachlan: 17:02

And so it just really set the tone. And she was just just an incredible woman. Absolutely incredible woman. And has done so much in her career to support men and women. Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 17:15

But it took it took quite a lot of sort of conversations with Margaret to start

Fay Young: 17:19

did. Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 17:20

Convince her about our your your intentions. Yeah. Absolutely. And that we were genuinely interested in her career and what she'd done, and that that was an inspiring thing for us to to hear. So Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 17:34

Yeah. I think, I'd never forget that. Do you remember she walked in?

Jude Barber: 17:38

Yeah.

Jude Barber: 17:38

And you're friends now?

Nicola McLachlan: 17:40

Yes. Exactly. Margaret and I. Margaret sadly has passed away now. But, yeah, there was a 60 year age gap for us, and we just became Gosh.

Nicola McLachlan: 17:47

Really, like, best pals. Like, we went down to , shared shared a static caravan. Honestly. Had sleepovers, lunches, boozy lunches. Went to events.

Nicola McLachlan: 17:57

Yeah. We were became absolutely best pals, and it's just Oh, that's It's been incredible. But that's not just me, you know, due to you continue to be really good friends as well. Yeah.

Jude Barber: 18:07

And I think that cross generational connection is really important because, you know, for a lot of these women, you know, if you're thinking in their seventies, eighties, nineties, some of them have had these incredible, exciting careers. And then, you know, obviously, once that comes to an an end, the landscape of how we talk about architecture, the opportunities to do that kind of disappear. And, they're not invited to be part and of things. And and I suppose for us, you know, it was really important. We through those friendships, we're actually sharing knowledge and information.

Jude Barber: 18:42

You know, so the archive is kinda building up books, references, other, you know, routes to other women's careers and making those those connections. So, yeah, no, it's been a really, really inspiring journey. And I think it started as a pilot. You know, it started as a an experiment of 4 4 pairings, Nicole, obviously, being one of those with Margaret, with Heather Claridge, planner, teamed up with Kirsteen Borland that I mentioned earlier, talking about, how energy came to to Scotland, you know, because, Kirsteen was involved in oil coming to Scotland up in the Murray

Jude Barber: 19:20

Yeah.

Jude Barber: 19:20

Murray Coast, and Kirsteen was looking at green energy sorry. Heather was looking at green energy, in Glasgow. So, you know, it starts to become, you know, a bit of social history, really, about our nation. So there's there's there's lots lots to to learn from. Yeah.

Fay Young: 19:36

And that knowing just knowing what what the women have actually done, that that, as you were saying, becomes a lost value, lost resource.

Jude Barber: 19:49

Yeah. Because we know because we know archives, you know, the the the sort of you know, the canon of of architecture design, hasn't included women. And we know that that there are people who are written out or contributions are not recorded. And I think this project in a small, kind of modest way is trying to sort of recalibrate that. And importantly, I think Suzanne, as mentioned earlier, you know, she's, she is an architect, trained architect, but is also professor, at ESALA in Edinburgh and we're very fortunate that through her work and and her rigor, the project's also connected to, you know, to formal archiving.

Jude Barber: 20:26

So now all the conversations are transcribed, cross referenced, and, archived at on the Data Share site. So it's actually now been used as a as a research tool.

Fay Young: 20:38

Fantastic. And so they're easily accessible for anybody who's interested in in In listening. Yeah. So, I'm I'm just intrigued to know more about Margaret. What was her story then?

Fay Young: 20:54

What what had she been doing?

Nicola McLachlan: 20:58

Well, an important part of Voice of Experience for us as well, like you've mentioned, is very much about the work of women and highlighting the work and investigating the work. And so, the reason Margaret and I were paired together initially, was because both of us had worked down in Leith Fort in different capacities. So, Leith Fort 4 Margaret had, in the sixties, entered a competition to redevelop, an area down the Leith, which then when I started working down the Leith, that project she she her entry didn't actually win in the end. But, the the the area which the competition was based had just been demolished. And and I was working on the project, the new project that was getting built.

Nicola McLachlan: 21:40

So Margaret and I, that was where the anchor was between our our work. We had this sort of common relationship with Leith. And Yeah. And Margaret had also worked in a lot of housing down in London. In fact, I think, she was coined the drainage queen of Pimlico at one point.

Nicola McLachlan: 21:57

She's been working on all of this strategy for these large housing projects, which was very proud of. And it's

Fay Young: 22:03

really fun. I bet.

Nicola McLachlan: 22:05

The drainage queen of Pimlico. And so we met down a lease on sites, wear hard hats on, and we walked around the new development down there just discussing housing and drainage and all sorts of different things. It was just incredible. And I think one thing as well, I think, you know, architecture is a career that is so wide ranging. I don't think just from from my experience anyway with Margaret and and others, it doesn't really leave you.

Nicola McLachlan: 22:35

And I think that was what was incredible. You're into your nineties and you're still got so many opinions about how things should be, you know, housing, what rights you should have, you know, what fundamental rights we should have in homes and, access to green space and, you know, just I think that the big part of, my experience with voices is just, I think, that intergenerational elderly sort of views on society. I think, it sort of helps to sort of open people's eyes to the value of older people, here, older women, and their contributions through their life and and still into their older years, I think.

Fay Young: 23:18

Yes. And it's it's something that we that our society has become much more, insulated from, and what's the word? I mean, we we we've we've parcelled up into to different categories and in more traditional, societies older people are very much part of the just the natural, rhythm of of and and younger people wouldn't would naturally turn to their elders Yeah. For advice and well, you know, oh look it's flooding. What did you do the last time it flooded?

Jude Barber: 24:02

A 100%. And you know, we're we we always laugh because, our our good friend, Anne Duff, who's one of our participants, she was involved in the, the new housing in in Cumbernaulds, part of Newtown developments. She always you know, she would come to our events, and she you could just see her get because she was like, we were talking about this back in 1963. You know? And and it's just really valuable to like, you you're saying, Fay, to learn from the past.

Jude Barber: 24:27

And, you know, she you know, there are very few new ideas. You know, we actually it's really important we continue to learn and build and understand really really willing to impart this knowledge and share it, when when invited and asked. And it's just been really valuable for us thinking about, you know, where we sit in our careers as well. You know, I'm sort of mid career, and to to to to to learn from those that have have gone before. I think it's also important that we were talking there about different voices and different different people that have been involved.

Jude Barber: 25:08

I mean, the big thing for us to see about the project is that, it's always recorded on-site. So it's not an interview. So although we are the hosts, we call ourselves the hosts, we sit in the background. We we ask a very simple set of questions. We have, like, 5 questions.

Jude Barber: 25:24

They're always the same questions. So there's a formula to how we run the voice of experience project. You know, 1, it has to be based on-site. 2, the participants have to have a work based connection. You know, there has to be something in common.

Jude Barber: 25:40

They obviously have to be at some different stages in their career. And 3, that it's not an interview, you know, that it is actually, a conversation. And, what we found is that formula actually works quite well. We haven't really we've adapted it slightly over the over the years, but, ultimately, it's it's always the same format, and it seems to be working. And then we have rules again about how we transcribe the conversations.

Jude Barber: 26:04

We don't leave things out. It's really important to have those pauses, the laughter, the umms and the ahs. You know? So it's it's very much a a sort of true record of of what's been what's been said. So all of those things kind of add up to the conversation, and we're hoping to develop what we're working on at the moment as a toolkit.

Jude Barber: 26:21

Because as you mentioned before, Faye, this is something that could be rolled out. I was talking to someone recently. It's a lawyer, and she's, well, we've been having these conversations at law society about how do we capture the voices. And we're like, well, 100% happy for this toolkit to be used. And the other thing that's really important is that there's time and care taken around these things.

Jude Barber: 26:39

If you imagine you're in your eighties, you're you're trying to recall things from maybe 50 years ago. Yes. Yes. And the names and the people and you're you're sort of always having to sort of dive back into your into your past as well. So it's really important that we're taking time and, it could take months to to set up a conversation

Fay Young: 26:59

Really? Yeah. To make sure that Yeah.

Jude Barber: 27:01

That ultimately everyone feels comfortable and connected and willing to participate Uh-huh. And and share.

Fay Young: 27:08

And and it sounds like with all that preparation, that there's this, mutual respect and and feeling of equals.

Jude Barber: 27:17

Absolutely. And in the conversation, you can just see see the kind of sparks between the women, you know, the older younger women. And we have we have a kind of final question where, you know, if you got any one bit of advice you wanna pass on. And those are always the best moments. There's a bit of laughter.

Jude Barber: 27:32

Yeah. So, they're always quite good moments.

Nicola McLachlan: 27:37

Stay in the swim?

Jude Barber: 27:38

Stay in the swim. That was very we use it now in business, actually.

Fay Young: 27:41

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What what are the 5 questions that you ask?

Jude Barber: 27:47

Oh, well, we ask obviously, the first like you asked ourselves, you know, what was your route into architecture or landscape architecture? We also ask, you know, what could you describe a little bit, like your your journey, like your learning, you know, education and journey? Tell us a little bit about that. Is there any kind of thing you know, what particularly interest you in in in studying? And then what was your first job?

Jude Barber: 28:10

Which, again, is an easy one and it's kind of interesting. Everyone thinks what was actually my first job. An example of a project that you feel particularly, pleased about Mhmm. And why? And who supported and advised you maybe along your ways?

Jude Barber: 28:25

Is there anyone that kinda sticks out that you would like to talk about? And then, yeah, any advice you give to young people coming in to do what you're doing. Yeah. So those are the kind that's just a brief overview.

Fay Young: 28:35

Yeah. Great.

Nicola McLachlan: 28:36

Absolutely. And we have been expanding just from sort of architecture, conservation architecture, landscape architecture. We have been expanding that recently as well. So we've been having conversations with, well, I suppose the reason that we're expanding it is because, I mean, even through these conversations, it's highlighted that, you know, architecture is such a broad discipline. And for for for buildings to be built, for example, you know, there's so many other disciplines that are involved in that.

Nicola McLachlan: 29:05

And a key role in that is sort of studio managers or people behind the scenes who are sort of making sure all of this happens. So we've recently had a conversation, with that in mind,

Jude Barber: 29:19

with Hilary Nicoll up in Dundee that was, the sort of studio administrator finance manager at Nicoll Russell Studios up in Dundee. So it's really important to kinda get her story and perspective on being in practice in that way. So, yeah, the you know, we're not, when we talk about important contributions, we're not necessarily talking about, you know, whose names in the dictionary of Scottish Architecture. And that that that takes a little while sometimes with our participants to, to to talk about because many of us, you know, been we're kinda having to unlearn that kind of idea that you have to just you know, if you weren't the sort of top Yeah. You know, superstar pushed forward, from the practice, then your contributions don't matter.

Jude Barber: 29:58

So I think that's we're kind of having to unravel a lot of that through the project as well.

Fay Young: 30:03

And knowing how things if things work well, I suppose the people who clean the buildings, the people who, sit in reception, the, all the well, actually, even the people who deliver, you know, essential equipment and set it up. These are things that the mistakes that are made in design and construction really only begin to properly emerge once you start to use a building and live in it or work in it.

Jude Barber: 30:33

A 100%, you know, it's really you know, if he takes any of those parts away, you know, it doesn't work. So it's about valuing all the that can spectrum of how things are actually made and done and shaped. And and some of the things, you know, we're talking you know, if we we'd like to talk to another conversation we'd like to have is maybe around with a commissioner, you know, people who actually commission architects and have, you know, someone who's done that for, you know, decades because of people in mind, and those who are just beginning to do that as well. So, you know, it's it's it's for us, it's really trying to to to talk about that whole picture of shaping the built built environment and the people that have been involved in that.

Fay Young: 31:09

And you were saying, that that you're getting a growing number of of people, taking part and wanting to take part. Is is that right?

Nicola McLachlan: 31:19

Yeah. I think, well, it's a voluntary project. But given that, you know, we're chatting to to people in their nineties, there is a sense of urgency to capture these stories. Yes. So, you know, even when we were chatting before about Margaret, you

Jude Barber: 31:34

know, she

Nicola McLachlan: 31:34

would be like, oh, such and such would be fantastic, but she's dead. You know? And and it's a real you know, so there is a real urgency about capturing these stories. And and because it is a voluntary project, a lot of research goes into finding these people, pairing these people. And like Jake was saying, the sort of care and sensibility around pairings, that could be months pre meetings and reassuring people that this isn't something that, they'll feel uncomfortable with.

Jude Barber: 32:07

Uh-huh. Because we

Nicola McLachlan: 32:07

have had people in the past who'd have just said, actually, you know, it's not it's not for me. I I don't want to, you know, talk about myself. And you find that actually in a in a lot of women, that they just don't think that their story's valued or important enough to to be shared. So there is an urgency and there is a growing the project is definitely growing. But

Jude Barber: 32:29

it is. And we've noticed what's been quite interesting recently is that so we began doing conversations, and then we've moved into doing we did a lot of events as well associated with that. So, again, sort of roundtable, coffee morning type situations where we take our time and we have these these conversations together, and these are recorded and transcribed as well. And we've been doing that now for about 7 years. And another interesting kind of development of the project has been, kind of commissioning new work around this, sort of writing articles, publications, part partnerships with others.

Jude Barber: 33:03

So, for example, we've worked with Panel, who are amazing curatorial team, to do, we've done a publication called Remnants, you know, how you build a city. Yes. That looks fantastic. How you repair a city, and that that sort of focuses on the conversations, but it also, has some new work. For example, Rona Warwick Patterson went into the art art looked at some of our conversations and looked at the one that between, Fiona Sinclair and Maddy Lafferty, and she wrote, it's not a poem, it's like a piece.

Jude Barber: 33:33

She's written a piece about that called Outwith. And she takes the voices and she puts her puts this together into a written piece. And then we've also had exhibitions, for example, like the mementos project which where we asked our participants to select one memento from their working life and then they write a small piece about that and that's they're presented in archive boxes. So we did that the Lighthouse centre for Design and architecture back in, I think, that was 2019 or something like that. So we've we've Architecture.

Jude Barber: 34:03

For the architecture Fringe.

Nicola McLachlan: 34:04

So we we,

Jude Barber: 34:05

you know, we we're kind of now moving into, ex the sort of opening up the archive and and exploring that in different through different media and with different partners and people. So that's been that's been a really kind of interesting outcome. And last year, we did an event, the Edinburgh Art, you know, festival with a conversation over there. So that's really growing as well, which is which is super exciting. Yeah.

Jude Barber: 34:27

It is. It's now

Fay Young: 34:28

got pieces

Nicola McLachlan: 34:29

in the V and A. Voices of Experience are now displayed in the V and A, and they're Scottish Scottish gallery. Scottish gallery. And there was also an event last year as well in the V and A?

Fay Young: 34:39

Was it?

Jude Barber: 34:40

For International Women's Day last last year. We had Diane Waters, the historian Diane Watters, and the, past president of RIAS, Christina Gaiger, speaking on a platform just about their their work, the V&A. So we're really you know, this is what we're starting to see is what we've been doing as a kind of sort of ad hoc. You know you know, we both work full time. So we're doing you know, and and Suzanne as well.

Jude Barber: 35:03

We you know, what we're finding is this work that we've been sort of gently building up and building up is now starting to form its own resource that the others, you know, really quite established organisations are starting to come to us and say, actually, we would like to maybe use parts of that because it allows us to tell a different story maybe about our our work too. Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 35:23

And on Sunday, we're actually hosting a conversation with Jim Johnson and Scott McAuley. And it's been really lovely, actually, the conversations behind the scenes so far as, Scott's really highlighted how influential Jim's work, has been in his life. And they're both real pioneers in sustainability and climate action. So really exciting. And that will be our 1st sort of male pairing, I suppose.

Fay Young: 35:51

Fantastic. So where where is that taking place? Sorry.

Nicola McLachlan: 35:57

Well, that is taking place in Creetown, and Jim's where Jim lives. So Yeah. Myself and Suzanne and Scott are driving down there on Sunday. So it's 3 hours of pre conversations and then a couple of hours down there with Jim and his wife. And we'll have tea and cake and soup, and they've offered to have us for lunch.

Nicola McLachlan: 36:17

So, yeah, it's really exciting.

Fay Young: 36:19

It's great because, I mean, this this is social history, which is It's

Nicola McLachlan: 36:22

taken years actually to set that one up.

Jude Barber: 36:25

Has it?

Fay Young: 36:25

Has it? Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 36:27

It has. These things take I mean, if you have a pandemic in the middle of it, it makes sense. But, yeah, definitely. These things do take time. And, so and as Jude was saying, because all all of the conversations are archived as well, we're very fortunate to get funding, a lot of funding actually via Edinburgh University, and Suzanne's sort of research there.

Jude Barber: 36:48

Uh-huh.

Nicola McLachlan: 36:49

Because that does take time and professionals to transcribe things and then put them onto the data share. There was a lot of work that goes into actually making these research to researchers making the this a research tool or resource. So, yeah, it's just getting the right conversations and then doing it properly, which it started off, you know, just like Jade was saying. We we we didn't really plan for it to go as far as it has, which is exciting.

Fay Young: 37:19

It is very exciting, and it it is you're obviously tapping into a need to, learn from from experience, across a whole range of activities.

Jude Barber: 37:32

Absolutely. And it's, you know, it's a kind of global, matter. I mean, we've been very fortunate as well that the project and and, you know, some of us have been invited over to places like Melbourne to talk, you know, through, with sort of, sister organizations like Parlour.org.au. If you haven't heard about them, they're absolutely amazing. They're doing incredible work over, in that part of the world, around sort of women and and gender equity.

Jude Barber: 37:57

And, they've invited us to take part. Suzanne was just there last year. I was there maybe, like, 4 or 5 years ago. We've also taken part in, various events down in London and, in Spain. So there's there's definitely something there around to kind of be part of a a sort of growing movement of of of people doing work in this area.

Jude Barber: 38:18

And Suzanne's also involved in an amazing research project as well called Women Make Cities. So I think that ties very much into what,

Fay Young: 38:26

you

Jude Barber: 38:27

know, partly what we're trying to do, but obviously that's a broader project which is really growing attraction. So that's that's exciting as well.

Fay Young: 38:35

Yeah. That does sound fascinating. And is is that, across the whole all the different aspects of life in a city?

Jude Barber: 38:43

Or Yes. It looks back to sort of history and, you know, there's one, example that that Suzanne was, talking about with one of her researchers. It's all about just street sellers in Edinburgh and how women had been very visible in the street selling, and this kind of informal trading that happened at one time. And then, of course, they got through to to laws what moved on. And then that visibility of women in the space sort of changed the the in in the character of the city.

Jude Barber: 39:07

So it's just important that we kind of understand that kind of dynamic between, the pop you know, the politics space and women's role within that. And, particularly in International Women's Day, we're hearing a lot about this, at the moment. And, you know, we've got organizations such as, like, Making Space for Girls talking about how do we encourage, you know, open spaces to to allow young women to participate and be in those spaces because we know that they currently don't feel comfortable in those spaces. So there's there are a lot of really positive initiatives around this. And I think one thing we found with voice of experience is that we we have a very particular way of exploring women's role in the built environment, and we're we think having that clarity of method is is really key.

Jude Barber: 39:45

Mhmm. And then seeing it as part of a bigger landscape of of of people doing incredible work to sort of highlight, women's experience and spaces is is something that we're very mindful of.

Fay Young: 39:57

And I think when we had an earlier chat, you were talking about well, and you've already mentioned pairing men as well, but but other, what we call minorities, there's a scope for for encouraging those opening up those conversations and learning.

Jude Barber: 40:18

Yeah. Exactly. And as Nicola said, you know, it's called Voices of Experience. So it's about telling those kind of untold stories. And we know, and, you know, when we think about, black experience, people of colour, when we think about, people of different, you know, sexualities, neurodiversity, when we think about, you know, pedialism, all of these sort of your whiteness class.

Jude Barber: 40:39

It's it's it for us, I think we feel like there's, you know, so much more that we could do with the project and that we could be building on, in and around, telling those different stories, have heeding those different voices, and also that kind of intergenerational, perspective on on that. So that's definitely where we would love the project to continue to to, you know, to grow and move forward in that way. But

Fay Young: 41:06

Yeah. Yes. I'm feeling quite up listening to all that you're doing, but I I you quite often, I start the day feeling down. You know, you just have to you just have to look at the today's news. But through your work, it's it's one of the the questions, that has evolved as one of our set questions on If Glasgow's Walls Could Talk.

Fay Young: 41:30

Where are the reasons for hope? And are you you you do seem to be uncovering lots of reasons for hope, but but I feel very strongly that we we get so much doom, and it's important to know what's going wrong and what is wrong. But we also need to pair that with a, well, what do we do about it? And, because otherwise we give up.

Jude Barber: 41:56

Yeah.

Jude Barber: 41:56

I mean, a 100%. I mean, that that initial conversation that I had with Suzanne about, you know, this is ridiculous that, You know, we're losing women. They're you know, the landscape's terrible. You know, guys say stuff should so patronizing all the time. You sit and meet and see the only women in the room.

Jude Barber: 42:10

It's so boring, so tedious. Said, well, actually, you know, you could spend all your energy, like, getting completely eaten up by that, or we could actually do something that fills the gap, fills that void, and we get massive enjoyment from doing it. Mhmm. And, you know, we know a lot of really positive things come from small seeds, and you know, individuals just doing something hopeful. And so, you know, we talk about society, but, you know, we're part of that.

Jude Barber: 42:37

So society is built by loads of individuals doing things. So I think, in a small way, you know, this project is is trying to fill that gap or challenge the status quo, but to do it in a way that actually gives us enormous joy. And we, you know, we, like Nicola said, it it changed our life. It feel it has changed my life too. And I think, it's about shifting the balance and relearning how to do things.

Jude Barber: 43:03

And I think I would say to anybody listening or, you know, people who are thinking appreciated by anything, they're doing a thing. Well, what can you actually do in yourself that would just make that, you know, just make that we step forward in in what you want to see happen and and and do your best to do it. And I'm I'm I'm aware of my privilege as well, you know, why you're in the classroom and whatever. But, you know, I just think, well, I'm gonna use you know, I'm gonna make the most of that and and be mindful of that privilege, but let's try and do something about about all.

Nicola McLachlan: 43:32

Oh, exactly. And if you just think how many women with wood gray white hair have been on a platform now? Oh, we just lost the one the one thing that started it. You know, that opportunity has come Yeah.

Jude Barber: 43:43

We've had, like, about 10 events now. So you think we've all been

Jude Barber: 43:46

full of,

Jude Barber: 43:46

you know Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan: 43:47

Women talking, Older women holding the microphone.

Jude Barber: 43:50

Pocket yeah. They really, really wants to start. Yeah. It's brilliant.

Fay Young: 43:57

Absolutely. You've got good pictures of all these wonderful white haired women.

Jude Barber: 44:02

Absolutely. Really articulate, passionate Yes. Funny

Fay Young: 44:06

Yes. And knowledgeable people. Yeah. That when I was when I was last in Paris, walking along the street up in Montmartre, there was a really wonderful mural of an older woman with white, wispy, flyaway hair and lots and lots of lines. She was absolutely beautiful, and the look on her face was a sort of benign amusement as though, you know, passersby, I know what you're doing.

Fay Young: 44:36

I I've been there before. It was just Oh, absolutely.

Nicola McLachlan: 44:40

Exactly. Yeah.

Jude Barber: 44:41

Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And and we know that, you know, you know, the the war on women's bodies, how we see ourselves, how we're we're supposed to be in public, is is is so deep set in society. And I think, for us, you know, to see, women in her nineties holding a microphone, talking about what she's doing in these typically, I mean, I was thinking of Kirsty Borland in that gorgeous pink suit that she has, you know, looking so stylish, so composed.

Jude Barber: 45:12

Mhmm. And I think, you know, just to even see that happening live is is is an incredible thing. So I think the fact that we've had those opportunities to be in those spaces has been yeah. It's been

Nicola McLachlan: 45:24

I remember Margaret called me before our first event. I was like, what are you wearing? And then I called you. I was like, Margaret, she's asking me what I'm wearing.

Fay Young: 45:32

Yeah. True. Do you remember what you're wearing?

Nicola McLachlan: 45:38

Oh, I would've just said something black. No doubt. But she was like, well, I'm going to wear a white shirt and some sort of jumper. I don't ever say that. Perfect.

Nicola McLachlan: 45:48

But it's just these little these little what

Jude Barber: 45:50

is it because it was a

Nicola McLachlan: 45:51

a silly thing, but it just brings you in common. You know, we're all thinking what are we gonna wear to be on stage, and it doesn't matter what age you are. It just it's it's really little simple things like that that have really pulled us all together. It's it sounds really strange, but it it it really has sort of brought those generations together through Yeah. Experience.

Nicola McLachlan: 46:12

Experience.

Fay Young: 46:13

That that is a lovely heartwarming thought. We we've actually, amazingly enough, come to the the the end nearly nearly. And, this is the question that Niall Murphy always gets great, joy out of asking. The one, that asks you what your favourite Glasgow building is, and what it would say if its walls could talk.

Nicola McLachlan: 46:40

I was laughing with Jude because I actually just spotted that question right before. And when you to ask an architect that question is it's pretty loaded. It's no pressure. It's quite a difficult thing. What's your favorite building?

Fay Young: 46:56

You've just explained something to me because Niall always introduces that as a loaded question. And, you know, the journalist in me are thinking, well, it's not loaded. It's a straight question. But, yeah, he's he's an architect. Of course.

Fay Young: 47:11

Of course. Okay.

Nicola McLachlan: 47:12

So Do you know a funny story, actually. I'm just remembering is my interview, for the Mac. Part of the questions for your interview was what's your favourite building? And I remember sitting there, and we were filling it out before we were all queued up. There was about 10 of us in the room, and I said to the girl next to me, what's your favorite building?

Nicola McLachlan: 47:30

And she she pointed at her form that said the Gherkin. And I remember thinking, the Gherkin? I don't even

Jude Barber: 47:33

know what that is, but I just put the Gherkin down. And I was

Nicola McLachlan: 47:33

in there, and she thought, don't I don't

Jude Barber: 47:37

I don't even know what that is, but

Nicola McLachlan: 47:38

I just put the Gherkin down.

Jude Barber: 47:38

And I was in there and she thought, don't ask me

Nicola McLachlan: 47:39

because the the only buildings I really had ever thought about is ones that collection actually had done at the time. And I was like, just that housing project in Paisley.

Jude Barber: 47:49

What am

Nicola McLachlan: 47:49

I gonna say? Is that really Glasgow? And I was like freaking out. It's always a quite a loaded question for me to answer.

Fay Young: 47:55

Right. And

Jude Barber: 47:56

I was

Jude Barber: 47:56

like, student, I don't know

Nicola McLachlan: 47:56

what I'm gonna say. But I think just even what we started talking about is, like, buildings and the importance of, like, memories and well, actually, the theme of this is, you know, within the walls,

Jude Barber: 48:09

what we can

Nicola McLachlan: 48:09

see.

Fay Young: 48:10

Yes.

Jude Barber: 48:10

And I

Nicola McLachlan: 48:10

think for me, the the strongest memories of buildings in Glasgow is up at the campus at the the GSA, so in the Bourdon building where I studied just because it's where it's formed most of my thinking at the time and made lots of friends. And just I spent so so many hours in the studio there. I think that's where I feel when that question when I seen that question this morning, I went immediately up to the building. So I don't know the the reason that's loaded is is because, you know, aesthetically are we talking about or, you know, how it works inside or what materials has been used. Or it's a very difficult kind of question.

Nicola McLachlan: 48:50

And and for me, I think it's just about memories. Yes. So that's that's my answer. Sorry. Quite an odd answer.

Fay Young: 48:59

No. And, Jude, what about you?

Jude Barber: 49:03

Yeah. I know. Similarly to Nicola. Oh. But I I think if I think about places I've been that have really had a massive influence on me, I think that there's one building that really stands out for me.

Jude Barber: 49:14

It's not so much the the building, although that's entirely part of it. It's just the organisation. So I'm it's the Glasgow Women's Library. So, you know, I've had, you talk about things changing your life, but, for the show notes, it's, an old Carnegie building up in Bridgeton, east end of Glasgow, listed building. And, the women's library, is a fantastic organization of charity.

Jude Barber: 49:39

Full disclosure, I'm currently the chair, and, I've been on the board for about 6 years now. But we first, came to learn about this this amazing, building and an organization, collective architect. We we we we, designed their new home, in Bridgeton when they moved from the Mitchell Library. And I think working with the women's library is just it's been an absolute, like, revelation for me, particularly as a woman in construction. It just opened my eyes to the just women's struggles, the opportunities that that that can come from from taking a feminist approach.

Jude Barber: 50:16

And so and the work that Sue and Adele, there and all the founders have you know, the work they've done to build this incredible resource. It's the only accredited museum to women's history in the UK, and it's here in the east end of Glasgow, which is fantastic. And the building itself is amazing. You know, Carnegie, that whole concept of learning and democratizing that is key. And then to think that, you know, women's history is something that we can all go along and find out about in this space is is amazing.

Jude Barber: 50:44

And the way that the organisation does that through events, through programs, through workshops, through just a hugely inclusive kind of program. I think today, on International Women's Day, I think I can't think of a Yeah. A better organisation to be talking about. And and so as I build it, you know, what does that building you know, when you say, like, if it's walls, could talk. I think it's walls do talk.

Jude Barber: 51:04

I think it already talks. And even the lift tower's got, you know, right, you know, titles from from incredible, women women's literature on it. So I think it it it just that building just lives and breathes, and everything goes on it goes on and continues to flourish. So, yeah, that's definitely the big one for me. Yeah.

Fay Young: 51:24

Well, I I I totally understand what you've both said. You know, buildings are where people spend their lives sometimes, born and die, and and memories are an absolutely essential part of buildings, but also the the Glasgow Women's Library is a I've I've been lucky enough to to to go to a couple of events there and meet some of the people there. It is a really inspiring place and a perfect choice for International Women's Day most definitely. It's just been a real pleasure talking to you both. This is the first time I've hosted on on this really lovely series.

Fay Young: 52:10

So thank you for making it a really terrific experience and I I just thinking what you're doing is tremendous. You you're creating a real treasure chest of of, celebrate celebrating, you know, human achievements. They they happen to be women's achievements, but it's it's about humanity, isn't it? And, how we build, the world we live in.

Nicola McLachlan: 52:38

It's being environment.

Jude Barber: 52:39

That is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for inviting us. It's been a pleasure.

Jude Barber: 52:42

Thank you, Faye

Nicola McLachlan: 52:43

Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much.

Katharine Neil: 52:45

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow's historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at glasgowheritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock's