Episode 7 - Splashes of colours around the city, with John Foster, City Centre Mural Trail and Ali Smith, Art Pistol

Hello, and welcome to Glasgow City Heritage Trust podcast, "If Glasgow's Walls Could Talk" a new series about the relationships, stories and shared memories that exist between Glasgow historic buildings and people.

Niall Murphy
Hello everyone, I'm Niall Murphy and welcome to "If Glasgow's Walls Could Talk" a podcast by Glasgow City Heritage Trust about the stories and relationships between historic buildings and people in Glasgow. In this episode we'll be talking about Glasgow and its amazing murals, and who are the people and the organisations behind them.
The word mural, originates from the Latin word murus, meaning wall. So we can define mural art as any artwork painted or applied onto a wall. Although very often we think of murals as something contemporary and edgy, it's important to highlight the notion that murals have been around for literally ages, with the earliest ones dating back to 30,000 years ago.
You can find the modern murals ancestors in, Egyptian tombs from 3150 BC on the walls of Pompeii, and in numerous Minoan palaces.
Winding the clock forward to more recent times, we see murals assuming an increased political meaning, in the 1930s when artists like Diego Riviera used this medium to express solidarity, freedom and hope during the Mexican Revolution. Street art and murals in particular were, and continue to be, the most accessible form of contemporary art, often influenced by political and social issues.
Murals can change landscapes and influence and inspire communities to do better and strengthen their identities. As powerful representations of society murals can often be political, sometimes controversial, and very often not to everyone's taste. Examples of the political and social implications of this form of art can be found in murals created in support of the Black Lives Matter campaign, and the numerous murals in Northern Ireland depicting past and present political divisions, or the murals painted on the Berlin Wall displayed at the East Side Gallery, the world's largest open air Gallery, and finally in the super popular artworks by Banksy, with its famous razor sharp portrayal of society.
During the last decade, mural painting has flourished in Glasgow. So murals can be found almost everywhere in the city and cover a huge range of topics from saints' lives, to flying taxis, pelicans and poems.
In January 2021, Glasgow City Heritage Trust launched a social media series exploring these great works of art around our city. And this has proved a wonderful opportunity to see Glasgow's magnificent historic built environment through a different lens and learn new things about the artists and the meanings behind them.
Glasgow City Council played a big part in giving various artists the opportunity to enrich Glasgow's urban landscape. Glasgow City Council's Mural Fund is a scheme which offers support towards the cost involved in creating and delivering new inspiring murals in the city centre, helping to enhance the look of the area, adding to the experience of visitors while also contributing to local regeneration. Glasgow City Council is also behind the Mural Trail, a free resource that features the diverse range of art in the city centre. The trail is downloadable for free at City Centre Mural Trail, which is all lowercase .co .uk. On the same page, you can also find the map and audio map and information about the different murals.
So our first guest today is John Foster, Project Officer for Glasgow City Council and project Lead for the City Centre Mural Trail initiative, as well as a number of other activities such as Dressing the city, the Glasgow Begging Strategy, the Wayfinding Strategy, and the District Regeneration Frameworks. Over the years John has been involved in some major capital programmes such as the East End Regeneration Route and the City Deal funded Avenues programme within the city centre. So welcome to the podcast John.

John Foster
Thanks very much, Niall. Very happy to be here.

Niall Murphy
It's a pleasure having you here, John. So first off, when did the City centre Mural Trail start and why?

John Foster
It got an interesting background. So previously, Glasgow City Council had an initiative called Clean Glasgow, which was all about environmental improvements in the public realm. And as part of that, murals had been introduced as a way of mitigating against instances of urban blight and graffiti and so on and so forth. Whenever the City Centre Regeneration Team, so that goes by, Clean Glasgow goes back to about 2008, whenever the City centre Regeneration Team, of which I was an officer, was an officer was set up in around 2012. Our group manager had come from Clean Glasgow and one of the the aspects of that work that, that she wanted to maintain going forward because she thought it had been effective was the continued use of of street art.
So it was then those elements were then brought into the City Centre Regeneration team and the City Centre Mural Trail and the City Centre Mural Fund were formally launched. Back in 2014.

Niall Murphy
Right, yes, the first ones I can really remember which really made a massive impact on me was the swimmers under the Kingston Bridge. Yeah, on either side, the Kingston Bridge, because I remember that being a real kind of site for graffiti, and then suddenly these kind of hugely impressive swimmers appeared. And I always wondered whether, on the other side, whether it's quite on the south side of the river next to the huge court building with there's quite an awkward junction, whether anyone ever got distracted by these amazing swimmers, you could see kind of, you know, slicing through the Kingston Bridge. It was a really impressive scene.

John Foster
Yeah, I mean, it's that the swimmers actually predates my involvement with the City Centre Regeneration Team. So I've been joining CCR since September 2013. By which point in time the swimmers had already been installed. So that that's one by Smug. I think it dates back to sort of 20, 2012, 2011 maybe it's one I think it's one of his first ones for this.

Niall Murphy
Right. I assumed it was in the run up to the Commonwealth Games.

John Foster
That was part of it as well, there was a few that had been done. Obviously, there had been the murals installed by Guido van Helten. So they've got the three at Partick, just at Partick train station. Yeah, that is a hugely impressive, yeah, yeah. And then obviously, the one in the city centre is Badminton.

Niall Murphy
Yeah, the badminton player in in the height of the Merchant City. Another hugely impressive one. Yeah, just the scale of them. It's quite something. So How popular is the funding? How many applications do you get per year?

John Foster
I probably refer to inquiries rather than applications. And the reason why I say that is because we try and keep the process as informal as possible. So the paperwork, if we get that far with an inquiry tends to come at the end of the development process.
So what tends to happen is, say, will receive an email from from someone interested in doing a mural through the City Centre Mural Fund. And then we'll just go through the process in terms of this is what's involved, these are the boxes that we have to tick off. So the actual paperwork, the actual and inverted commas, application as a sort of formal process, takes place, right at the very end, whenever we've essentially agreed that, that a project can take place and that we've sort of jumped through all the hoops, and we've agreed a sort of price and what avenue, sort of the the actual application itself, comes at the end of that process.
And during that process, many inquiries will sort of fall by the wayside for a number of reasons. So I would, I would imagine, because it's kind of difficult to keep track of this, emails are fair enough, because you can, you know, you can go back through your records, and you can see exactly how many emails have been received from people making inquiries about, you know, getting involved and the murals in the city centre. But if it's through phone calls, and what have you, it's a wee bit more difficult to, to capture that sort of level of data.
So I was thinking about this, I reckon maybe somewhere between 50 to 100 inquiries a year, right, from people interested in either creating murals by directly themselves or being involved in the creation of murals. And in fact, if you're waiting the scope to just inquiries about the project itself, you're probably talking hundreds of the year, right,

Niall Murphy
And how many of those actually can convey through into a finished mural?

John Foster
We tend to have probably, at the most maybe two or three a year, for every for every mural project to be successfully complete. There is maybe about a dozen or so that we just couldn't get across the finish line because ultimately, at the end of the day, the murals, the City Centre Mural Trail project relies on two key stakeholder groups that we have no control over, number one artists or, or creative people, people who come to us saying listen, I want to do a mural. So there's that element. So we can't control that.
We can't control how people are interested in murals or you know, that level of engagement and then the second key stakeholder group is landlords, because obviously every mural needs a landlord to provide permissions for the use of the property.
So basically, the entire project is controlled by a lot of people. Really we just provide project assistance and support and some annual funding just in order to, you know, to grease the wheels and allow activities where they can proceed to take place. So it's very much that the entire project is really a work of, of phenomenal goodwill from other people.

Niall Murphy
Yes, absolutely. So are there any limits in terms of areas in Glasgow, artists, or anything like that?
In terms of, you know, who can apply?

John Foster
I mean, anybody can apply, any interested party can apply. And then obviously, there'll be, determinations made, based on the relative merits of the proposals, I mean, that our project guidelines saw, the City Centre Mural Fund, which is the funding mechanism that enables murals where possible to take place, and then once a mural has been installed, then it becomes part of the City Centre Mural trail. But you're looking at things like you know, in terms of guidelines, and we try and keep things as accessible as possible.
But the actual, the artwork concept, the mural content, so we try and keep things light. So as from our point of view, we don't want anything that's, that could potentially impact negatively either on the city or the council. So what the general rule we have is, you know, no religion or politics, no football, you know. So that's that in terms of geographical scope, there, the activity is limited to the operational City Centre area, because the funding is done through our team, it's our project, and all our activities are limited to that area. So we can't go beyond that boundary.
So a quick guide, the sort of nominal operational area of Glasgow is defined by these boundaries, so High Street to the east, river Clyde to the south, and then the M8 motorway to the west and the north, there's a wee bit of bleed round those areas, but that, but that's it, and then again, depending on on the the nature of the application, you're then looking at other criteria.
So for instance, if it's an artist who has made an application are there any, you know, other any, other operational factors, you know, is this mural going to be, going to require the use of plant. So like a scissor lift or a cheery picker, if so, does the artists have the requisite and qualifications, you know, what the permits, and what have you, are they insured, do they have access to to this site, because there's not only do you need permission from the landlord, but you also might need access from an adjacent landowner to get close enough to the wall to actually apply the paint.
So and then obviously, those, those elements just like the budget itself, so there's no a huge budget for the, for the city centre, mural activity. So whenever the budget is spent, you know, in any given financial year, then that's the end of the activity. That hasn't happened to date. To be fair, we've never, you know, exhausted the budget, which is relatively small. Simply, because as I said, that are these challenges to getting a mural installed in the first place.

Niall Murphy
It's interesting because two of my favourite ones are actually out in the East End, which is the, the giraffe, which is kind of out beyond Parkhead Cross, which I think is very good fun.
And there is another one by this, these two women artists I really admire, called Good Wives and Warrios, which is on, it's another one in Parkhead. And it has all these fantastic symbols of the city in it. Right. And I think that was done for the Commonwealth Games as well. But it's probably one of the lesser known ones, but it's so intricate, I can't not help admire it. So is the City Centre Mural Trail, Is it popular?

John Foster
Well, again, this this is I suppose this is part of the difficulty, it just in terms of getting accurate data of site visits, because how can you, how can you measure effectively how many people will stand next to a building or look at a mural, that is on it. It is very, very difficult to capture that level of data? I mean, you're you're basically relying on anecdotal data, you know, or through other means. So.. Instagrammable something is..
Yeah, so for instance, obviously through the web app that you very kindly plugged in, promoted earlier on. We do have access to anonymised data. So obviously, anybody who accesses the web app those, those data sets through that, you know, how many visits, what's the sort of the average sort of visit time the duration of visit on the web app and what have you. And of course, because the web app also has a sort of GPS element to track your progress around, around the murals, we can also collect sort of various matrices, you know, what, how many metres travelled and what have you.
So before, knowing that I was, I was going to be involved in this activity this morning, I have asked my colleagues to have a wee look at the web app just to see what sort of data so that there's two site key sort of data sets I suppose I would, I would point to so since lockdown there is been apparently, there is been approximately three and a half thousands users, right, have accessed or used the the web app. And the total number of meters that those you know, whoever it is, that's been out on site, sort of looking at the murals, it's just under 2 million metres. Wow. So so just under two, two kilometres, is that right? So 2000 kilometres, yeah, have been travelled within the city centre. So. So it's something obviously we do promote the Mural Trail.
Certainly, you know, last Summer, we were promoting it as a possible lockdown activity, and given the changing sort of distancing restrictions. And then, you know, that was a sort of a primary factor behind the development and introduction of the audio map. So again, is to provide a virtual guided walking tour of, so you can go round the site, you can have that on and you can listen to my dulcet tones, as if I was there of thing saying, you know, so if I was there doing a guided walk into, this is effectively what you would hear.
So not only does it provide that additional layer of for the activity itself, but it also means that people who just were unable to travel to the city centre could also, you know, partake in a virtual guided walking tour, and again, anyone with either mobility or sensory impairments can still get at least get a flavour of the murals through through access. And in using the audio markers. We also we've tried to make it as user friendly as possible. And we'll continue to look at ways and how we can improve the the offer of the murals overall within the city centre.

Niall Murphy
Sure. And do you think the murals enhance the city?

John Foster
Yeah, I mean, again, going back to what we've seen about Clean Glasgow, that there were very definite operational reasons as to why the street art was introduced to the city by the Council.
So you know, you're looking at things like vacant and derelict sites, you're looking at mediating or mitigate against urban blight, graffiti, fly posting, that kind of thing is well, so I suppose the thing you have to bear in mind is that for us, obviously, the council is not a cultural organisation. And by that, I mean, we're not like Creative Scotland or we're not even Glasgow Life, you know, so what, so, we can introduce activities based on what we perceive as real operational issues or challenges within the City Centre. But then from there, they might take flight and become a good thing indefinitely.
So for instance, if.. I made a quick list here about some of the wider benefits, or outputs, that we think that the murals achieved within the City Centre, so for instance, the murals can be a catalyst for wider strategic environmental enhancements. So they help to underpin efforts to encourage the positive use of space, and they Inspire the active participation of local stakeholders to help change how a place is perceived. And secondly, they can encourage a visit or footfall to areas out with the principal retail areas. So what we can then achieve is we can increase customer catchment areas with those kinds of income benefits for local businesses and the communities that they serve. Again, obviously, at the end of the day, we are essentially creating freely accessible art installations, which can become local landmarks, cultural touchstones, they tend to draw upon local historical references, and they embed themselves in a traditional area identity. So again, it's that sort of community benefit that can.

Niall Murphy
Definitely it's kind of like, you know, this, it's successful in some ways, because there are sites in Glasgow which would otherwise be regarded as kind of unsightly, and that, that has, you know, what you've done in terms of an environmental improvement has, you know, allowed people to kind of feel better about that?

John Foster
Yeah, again, it's a lot of what the council, the council only exists to support the city, the council exists for no other reason than that, to support the city. And then you say, Well, what does that mean?
And it's this, you know, it's making sure it's making the place looks as presentable as possible. It's using the resources at your disposal as effectively as we possibly can. But again, a lot of it is trying to foster a sense of civic pride, you know, this is your city, you live here, you work here, you visit here, there's only so much the council can do to present the city in the best way possible. But from that, many great things can then flow. Again, just very quickly, some of the other things I've managed to sort of note down here here.
So again, the active travel element, if we can encourage people to go out and actually see the murals. Again, you know, the 2000 kilometres sort of travelled again, active travel supports the City Centre's healthy living strategy.

Niall Murphy
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I very much during during lockdown, it was ironic and where I am on the South Side and Pollokshields ended up because I was doing a lot of walking around here, but I ended up going into the city centre to do my walks, because actually it was much quieter in the city centre, and again, see just as much kind of interest there, including the murals as you were in the Southside, where it's actually started getting really congested, because so many people are going out and getting their, you know, daily daily walk.

John Foster
Yeah, I mean, that this is, again, I suppose that that's what sort of things can then flow. It's like, it's the classic sort of analogy, you know, you drop a pebble in a lake, and then the ripples come out. Yeah, and the same sort of idea, there is various kind of some are benefits. Some of maybe, you know, maybe, maybe not so, but then you try and steer these after effects in the best way possible.
So, again, hopefully not bore anybody, but again, some other sort of benefits that we consider, another obvious one is, is giving aspiring artists, you know, an opportunity to instal what care very much effectively on the grandest scale, when in some of the most high profile locations in the country, especially individuals who may have a background in graffiti. So this is an opportunity for them to legitimise you know, the evident talents, working with the local communities, and that sort of thing helps to promote partnership working and community engagement. It's, you know, if this is, the the first time you've really engaged with the council, then it may change your perception of what you believe the council is, and what the council does as well…So very much we got a positive outcome like that.

Niall Murphy
Have you, I mean, to look at the flip side of it, as a counsellor had been criticised for any of the murals, that you decided to fund?

John Foster
Well, that's interesting, because overall, the, you know, the reaction to the City Centre Mural Trail has been overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly positive, not just, you know, within the city, but but further afield. We've received, you know, positive responses, both nationally and internationally as well, you know, again, some, some of the inquiries that we've received have been from, you know, America, you know, New Zealand, Australia, that kind of thing.
I actually had a meeting a few years ago, with someone who was looking to establish a similar activity in Sand Diego, I think, right. And it just so happened that this, I think, was an art professor. She had, she was in the area. And she asked, you know, whether or not I could have a quick meeting with her just to, you know, again, explain the background, and you know, how it tends to work for those and what have you.
So, and that's a conversation that I've had with loads of different organisations across the UK and further afield, because people see what's happened and happening in Glasgow, and you think, I think that something like that, not necessarily the exact same shape, but something like that may work really well in our own locality. And we are happy, you tell people, you know, this is what we do. This is how, you know, this is the background. So we think it works.
But yes, that there are people who just don't like murals, you know, and that's just the way of it. So, but what we're trying, we would not put a mural, we would not install a mural, we wouldn't progress a mural if there was any sort of significant pushback.
So and part of the process, you know, is engaging with stakeholders and engaging with local communities, just to make sure that we have the necessary permissions before we can progress. That's a pivotal test. So we wouldn't progress a mural, if there was any sort of notable or significant sort of push back to it. And that's happened, that's happened in the past, we maybe got the landlord's permissions. But those maybe been people roundabout adjacent stakeholders who felt no we don't want to hear so we just we haven't done it.

Niall Murphy
Right. That's it's, it's interesting. I mean, particularly when you're talking about San Diego, there was a really interesting article in The New York Times yesterday about how the impact of COVID on city centres in the United States, and liveability in city centres is something that they are really aiming for. And it's there were many parallels with Glasgow City Centre that I could see in that article. And it was quite fascinating because it was like looking at places like Boston, which is something like 80% was offices. And there was next to no people actually living in the city centre, and San Diego was the exact opposite was far more people living in it. But that's a real challenge, obviously, for the city as well as to how we re populate the city centre and murals do actually really assist with liveability?

John Foster
Yeah, it's, again, if you look at the City Centre Strategy, which is around the team sort of guidance document, a lot of what we do comes from, well, everything that we do is evidence based, so the District Regeneration frameworks, the city Centre Living Strategy, you know, the Retail Strategy, you know, with, people may see we've actually got far too many strategies that were strategy heavy. And that's, you know, a relatively reasonable assumption, I suppose.
But we look at the same way that people make come to Glasgow and look at the murals and think, Well, that's a good idea, we could do something similar. Back down the road, we're always looking at examples, you know, the different strategy. And what happens is, also, we're looking at the best examples around the world, to see whether or not we can, you know, improve the city, you know, for us, for our team, it's restricted to the city centre, but again, that the entire purpose of the Council is to support the city to make sure the city is the best that can be at any given moment in time.
So and that's, so all these things that you mentioned, there, these are all these are all being discussed, they are all being progressed, and in a way that fits Glasgow, because although somebody may have a good idea they might have, they may have introduced that in a particular way, because that works in that area. So we can take the essence of that idea and try and bring it into Glasgow, but we'll maybe have to tailor it in specific ways. Certainly, because of sort of local factors, wherever they may be.

Niall Murphy
Sure, sure. So who owns the mural? Is it the artists property, the building owners property, the council's? citizens?

John Foster
Yeah, it's an interesting question, a sort of conundrum. And it's come up a few times, you know, something because people ask questions, you know, that sort of thing. It's sort of, it's one of the ones when somebody takes, you know, can, ask for permissions to go into a photograph of a mural that that kind of thing as well.
So my understanding and again, just just for anybody who's listening, who is a lawyer, I am not a lawyer, so I've been reluctant to go to deep and end up digging a hole for myself, but my understanding is that the legal possession of ownership and intellectual property rights surrounding murals are as follows. So, number one, the landlord ie the building owner, they own the physical mural, the paint has been applied to their property, therefore, the person who owns the property, owns the physical mural itself. Number two, the artist retains intellectual property rights in their creation. So they have a right to basically, commercially profit from the use of images. So if you see anybody with an image of a mural, or like a mug, or a t shirt, or what have you, really the only person that can do that is the artist or through his or her licence to someone to then create products based on that intellectual property.
And then third, Glasgow City Council has a licence to use images of City Centre Mural Trail because we have local agreements with the, with the artists. So when as part of the formal sort of end process in terms of you know, the application, the formal application process, we will enter into a sort of a commissioning agreement with the artist based on that particular mural. And part of that as you know, GCC wants a licence to use images, again, it's within agreed parameters. So we would only use images of the murals that have been created through the project to either promote the project itself, the City Centre Mural trail and, or the City of Glasgow. So we would, we would never use an image of any of the murals for any other purpose. And then finally, you've got you know, the legal possession regarding private individuals taking photographs, etc.
Again, my understanding is that they own the copyright and that image, but the are then restricted and how they can use that image to again, they couldn't take a photograph necessarily of a mural and then make, you know, cups and T shirts. Yeah, that is an artist' intellectual property rights. So that's my understanding. But listen, people could, you know, I'd be happy to hear from anybody who knows these things better than me, you know, so...

Niall Murphy
Thank you, John. So, a lot of the great murals which were created thanks to the City Centre Mural Fund a created by Art Pistol, an artists led group and pop up gallery who create, curate, and collaborate in public and private spaces with Scotland's top visual artists.
Art Pistol created some of the most iconic murals in Glasgow such as the Charles Rennie Mackintosh mural by artist Rogue One. The good as gold mural, the Shadow Hand Puppets mural in Cowcaddens, and the Billy Connolly murals, just to name a few.
I'm very happy to introduce you to our second guest, Ali Smith, co founder of Art Pistol, gallery, Director of Art Pistol projects, and creator of “The Portrayals: Painting Scotland’s Climate Story”, a nationwide visual storytelling project exploring climate issues, through art created in areas on the frontline, this project aims to strengthen the connections between people and the environment, and to inspire positive change in alignment with the UN climate change summit, COP 26, which is happening in Glasgow in November 2021.
So welcome to the podcast, Ali, it's a pleasure to have you. So first off, can you tell us how did Art Pistol start?

Ali Smith
Many, many years ago, almost, I guess it sort of became a dream, you know, actually the Art School did a project on establishing an online space for artists. So that was over 20 years ago. And yeah, through various things in between then and now.
We set up Art Pistol in 2011. And we actually came out of Glasgow School of Art and seem to hit a wall all those years ago, you know, and we sort of adapted and fell into, into, into other things almost too easily. And, you know, started to drift from what was maybe we saw as a purpose, certainly as a passion. And kind of think, why, you know, why should ? Why should? Why should every artist that's perhaps lesser known, or, you know, just coming towards the end of their studies, why should they take further, they have spent all this time, you know, showing a talent, so, we started doing pop up galleries, and cool and interesting locations in 2011 with a focus on working with unknown artists and guys who deserve to make a living from it, and also helping recent Art School graduates, you know, people that deserve the opportunities and try make a go of it. And yeah, and sort of evolved into various things. Ever since then.

Niall Murphy
So how did you get involved with Glasgow City Council and the Mural Fund?

Ali Smith
I still remember the conversation of that meeting fondly. In 2011 I think Glasgow Clean initiative was going gone very well. And we just wanted to get involved in some way. And try bring a new perspective with the different artists we're working with.
Yeah, just just really do the best and, and representing the guys we're working with collaborating with, and we would speak to everybody we could. We still try to do that. So the conversation developed over time, and we've got a great opportunity. The fresh mural we did with the council to transform a bit of an eyesore building on Clyde Street facing the river. We were hooked up with Rogue One in 2012.
And he did his magic and an amazing scenic Look at the Clyde and I guess, I don't know if you if you recall it, but yeah, elephant, elephants, divers. And, you know, thankfully not not shop, shopping trolleys. And we went and there was, you know, there was there was a focus in the early days, certainly of tackling the eyesores. Regeneration was sort of top of the list. And it's now evolved into this, you know, beautiful and amazing thing that people love and come to see.

Niall Murphy
Sure. So what are the main challenges in developing any of your murals in Glasgow?

Ali Smith
Well, I think John's probably outlined a lot of the complexities and just to show that you know, there's there's so many elements to project, artists, concept, landlords, tenants, permits, all sorts of stuff. So it's never is never straightforward.
But I think, you know, everything just needs to be balanced and everyone should be happy. And you know, we try to work towards that. I think the biggest challenge is probably, that put an artist by themselves, you know, to produce something that shines or exemplifies their practice and connects or, you know, or entertains or engages in some way. All other technical and logistical stuff can always be overcome normally, mostly. Yeah. So yeah, it's the creative, what's going to be the piece in the wall that shines that people want to stop and look at and talk about and engage with? I think that's the, the heart of it.

Niall Murphy
So presumably, it must involve a great deal of kind of patience and tenacity on your part to, you know, create something and see it through to the finish from the initial ideas.

Ali Smith
I think, I think it can, people always ask how does a project work? And there is no kind of straightforward answer to that. Because number of variables, every project can be very different. But yeah, it's just, I guess, having faith and we are going with it, and faith in the people you're working with. And ultimately, everyone just wants to create something that looks beautiful, or engages in some way. And that's sort of everyone's in it together. And normally, normally we get there. But you know, John's highlighted the complexities of it. And, you know, sadly, a lot of things do you fall short, but, you know, well, we'll keep on trying, and we stopped coming out all the time. So it's good.

Niall Murphy
So can you tell us a bit more about your, your project for COP 26. Climate Change Mural Project? And do you think that public art can be a catalyst for change?

Ali Smith
The Portrayals it's been a project several, a long time and coming Obviously, last year, the pandemic altered the course of many things, one of which was the schedule of painting, to align it with with the conference, which was during November last year, in November, this year that is coming.
So basically, we were going out to across Scotland's, Highlands and Islands in between, and we're looking for the sort of intimate stories around how climate will be affecting these different locations.
So you look at Uist and the surrounding islands so sea level rises, this is going to have an impact there. And you imagine a painting in that beautiful setting, but you need to be sensitive to the locals, to be sensitive to the, you know, the, the landscape as to where you're going to do it. And what you're going to do.
So there's, you know, there's a level of engagement that we're having in every location, and with all the stakeholders as well, because we've gone out and have basically sought private sponsorship from, from various companies that are equally kind of green minded. So, you know, again, it makes a project work. And that's another example of it's a slightly different path for us. But again, we're all in it, trying to create something that's going to strike a chord with whoever gets to see it, and be that in person or online, you know, in the papers, wherever it may be.
So, yeah, so we're working towards that this year with plan to start. End of August, start September and take us up to the conference in November, and we're just finalising a lot of stuff. Just now, but it's going well and great. Certainly a lot of, a lot of desire to see the project fulfilled and recognising that.

Niall Murphy
There is not a a risk that something like that can only just be a distraction, you know, from what the real issue is?

Ali Smith
You know, street art is often used as, you know, social commentary political protest, you know, rebellion as kind of surrendered so I think it's the perfect tool you know, medium to discuss this you know, we can look at Scotland's national visual efforts, national visual, storytelling project.
So, we're getting stories from all different walks of life and, you know, some really interesting things coming out. So it's, you know, it's, it's really connected to all the locations it's happening. So there's there's real integrity about the project.
And, you know, art can elicit powerful emotions and reactions and on a basic, you know, on a basic level, people will look at it and think about it, maybe take a photo share on social media, you know, it's all very casual, but that content starts to evolve and perhaps pals engage. The media picks it up and so on. So one person's photo can make quite an impact.
And then you add in the stories that we are portraying here and hope the whole point of this and there's another layer of wonder and scrutiny. You have this, this powerful tool and, you know, I think it's Yeah. Certainly, there's that there's one and there's a desire from everyone we speak to about this to do it. And it's just presenting the climate narrative in a different way. And I think it's going to be a very, very striking thing.

Niall Murphy
No, it's absolutely fascinating. I'm really looking forward to seeing what emerges from that. So with regards to kind of the work you've done today around Glasgow, do you have a particular favourite piece that Art Pistol have created for Glasgow City Council?

Ali Smith
There is lot of amazing stuff, you know, not to to single anything particular but favourites of all was Rogue One's Hand Shadow Puppets at Cowcaddens, always loved that.
There was a great, a great kind of visual we've got of about a week before we were due to start that there was a burst water pipe, and the whole tunnel was submerged in water, which is which is pretty bad, right? And then yeah, a bit later so talk about before and after photos. That was quite quite the example.
But the girl at Renfield Lane, the more recent one, another Rogue One's piece, a girl playing with bubbles. It's a beautiful piece. The Good as gold in Springfield Court by Conzo and Globel. Yeah, I love I love all the fun pieces. I love the entertainment industry, art and theatre of it, yes.
But you could, you could give me an emotive portrait, and I get as much level similar level of joy from that as I would. So I think that it's down to balance different, different styles, different artists getting out and doing their thing, and, you know, all kind of pieces together as Glasgow, Glasgow's response, you know, Glasgow's gallery, the mural trail and all that.

Niall Murphy
Sure. So looking at other cities across Europe that have a high number of murals, do you think that Glasgow can aspire to be as a city as kind of renowned for its street artists, like Berlin, Athens, or Belfast?

Ali Smith
You know, I wouldn't say I would aspire for us to be like somewhere else. For me, what's what does Glasgow do best?

Niall Murphy
To be itself.

Ali Smith
Yeah to be more of that, you know, that, I think that if you consider what, what's the story behind the murals and all the different cities, obviously, Belfast as a different type of mural traditionally, and so that different kind of starting point, but I think ultimately, there's, there's a balance between all the, you know, the big name artists that travel the world and paint in the big cities, and then what's coming out of that particular city itself, you know, the big names coming in, and the big names that are based here, as well as some some world renowned artists that are based in Glasgow, of course, you know, they offer a glimpse of a concept, what success looks like, whatever that means to an individual, of course, but, you know, whether it's the the sheer scale skill set to produce the quality of art that they do, or it's the work ethic to take on a massive role, or whatever it is, I think it just that that sort of insight it can give to, to those who aren't yet on that level, or maybe who aspire to that level.
And ultimately, just like this, the city breathe and evolve naturally, it is quite an exciting prospect and Glasgow's identity, whatever that is, or could be, that's, that's what it is for me.

Niall Murphy
So do you have a dream mural project in Glasgow or a dream building that you would like to paint a mural on?

Niall Murphy
Not really, I mean, The Portrayals is like actually comes quite close to being a dream project.
Scotland as a standard country, and what story we're getting to tell and the time we are getting to tell it as well. And, you know, for us to go and see a bit more of that and spread the message is quite a wonderful thing. But a building in Glasgow, probably don't even have a dream building to be honest, I'm probably leaning towards the unexpected these days. So somewhere almost hidden in plain view. It's quite interesting that you could walk past every day.

Niall Murphy
That's definitely one of the things I like about Glasgow.

Ali Smith
Yeah, you just you know, you turn a corner and while you know something is there that wasn't there yesterday, or you stumble across it or, or perhaps you go hunting, to explore the city and see these, see these new things, or these things that have been there for a while. You just have never had the time to see. But yeah, co-operations with multiple artists are very interesting like the project we done..the Clutha, the Clutha portraits and so we had canvases that would that would suit that. I quite like it. But you know.

Niall Murphy
It's one of the things I miss, miss on my commute is not getting to not walk past that everyday.

Ali Smith
Yeah, I am always looking and again, as John probably highlighted earlier on it's it's, it does get harder, but I think it's, steering some of the searches for walls off the beaten track, which in turn is actually having quite a positive effect. So yeah, just interesting to see where it takes us. You know, what's, what's around the next corner, a wall or a mural?

Niall Murphy
Sure. Absolutely. Yep. Okay, I'm going to bring John back in at this point, because I have a final question for both of you. And this is a question we ask all our guests, so it's completely loaded. And that is, what is your favourite building in Glasgow? And what would it tell you if its walls could talk? Who wants to go first?

John Foster
Oh, I mean, I'm happy to flounder on this one first.

Niall Murphy
You dive in there, John.

John Foster
I suppose I mean, I could say something really sort of corporate and say the City Chambers or something like that. I mean, the City Chambers is a cracking building in its own right anyway.
And I like the history about you know, the old Co-op Hypermarket that was a second design that was a design that that didn't win, but they built it anyway you know, when it became the the old Co-op Hypermarket just you know, just to the south, west of the immediate sort of city centre next to the Kingston Bridge and what have you, building for me…
I suppose I would go with buildings that I have a sort of connection with so, one side of my family's from sort of the Govan area and the other side is from, from sort of the Parkhead area, and when I was younger, I had spells when I lived with sort of both sets of grandparents, just the way things worked out. So I remember going to the Transport Museum when it was it sort of Kelvinhall on a sort of, almost sort of daily or weekly basis. I love that place. So the sort of the Kelvinhall ,the old Transport Museum, the Riverside, I think it's a cracking building as well.
So it would be I've got to be honest, if I was being honest, it would probably be a pub. So your favourite place that you frequent more, most often it's probably going to be a pub. But I sort of the building that I have a sort of connection to from way back in the day because you know, you can't beat a sort of a whiff of nostalgia and going back to a place that you are you know, that you've been going to for for years, and years, and years, and years I mean, I love the Subway Stations as we all have the smell with it, you know that I think that it's a feeling but also tactile you know, you know exactly where you are, you know, so things like that, that's what I love about places you know, the sort of the connections you make with a place and the sort of that that sort of nostalgic sort of sense of place that kind of lives with you.
Even if you're not there, I mean right now just imagining the subway station I can just you know that smell sort of the the sort of, the the sort of gusty winds that come through in, the noise of the train is approaching stuff like that. So is that that's that's what I would, I would go for something probably doesn't affect the nature of the question you were asking really but that to me is this sort of this this sense of place that came, that thing?

Niall Murphy
Absolutely. I mean that, a city is an immersive experiences, it's all those things that the sights the smells, the sound of it, that's all makes up that place?

John Foster
And you get to you get to exist within all of it. Yes. So I probably I go for something, something like that.

Niall Murphy
And you Ali?

Niall Murphy
I love a castle. And in Glasgow, well, the city centre. Obviously. There's some, some beautiful buildings, and yet the stories that connect with those, those spaces, even just these new photos of looking down tenements in the back courts 100 years ago, whatever it's gonna be like, it's beautiful, but I can't I knew this question was coming.
And I thought about it. I don’t, I don't have one. I can't actually and this seems like a real cop out, but just the general flavour of Glasgow to go out and experience. You walk around, and everyone says you walk around Glasgow and look up and you see and it's you know, I think it's probably maybe in my kind of nature, that that sort of adventurous and like to go out and explore so it's always looking for new stuff and not really ever settling on? On what's there but I don't know maybe there's some kind of psychological disconnect. I don't know.
But yeah, it's Glasgow in general has some amazing stories, but some of these buildings as well that are connected with certain periods in our history there’s, there's bad stories to tell us a lot of bad stuff so maybe it's a protective mechanism to to not think about some places that you maybe hold dear and what that shows that the truth, you know what the walls actually said back then because it's there's going to be a lot of not very nice stuff and certainly sure as we as we evolve but so I've rambled and seemingly unconsidered answer but yeah, that’s it.

Niall Murphy
It is true you have to accept the rough with the smooth and that's kind of what I like about Glasgow is it's it's quite prepared to do that, you know, we're not precious. So which is something I value, so and you have to be honest.

John Foster
So sorry Niall, Can I just jump in with another one?

Niall Murphy
Sure, go on John!

John Foster
It just sprung to mind, the Barrowlands. You know, been going there for years for. You know, gigs, music, concerts, that kind of thing as well. And I've always appreciated the balance because it still retains that it's like a place lost in time that there's plenty of places like that. I mean, you know, Sloans and what have you as well, you know, there's still that architecture, you still get that sense of, of space as sort of a quick anecdote, a very quick anecdote.
My youngest brother got married a few years ago and his wife is from the Czech Republic. So a couple of years ago, we went to a gig at the Barrowlands, and she had never been before. And she felt the place had a sort of an oppressive sort of scariness to it, there was something about the Barrwolands that, that she didn't immediately take to like.
That's pretty strange, she said I don't like this place, you know. So afterwards, I say, What was that about? So, you know, Barrowlands is a world famous venue, you know, it's always rocking?
And she says, no, no, I just, you know, there's something about the place I don't like, but then whenever you think back Bible John, and stuff like that and you go, maybe that is something that she was picking up on? I don't know.

Niall Murphy
It is funny, sometimes sometimes you get that, I lived in Berlin for a while. And I don't know, maybe it was because the winters were very dark there. And the same way suppose that its dark here too, but it was just something about it. And you could still see bullet holes on the walls and things. And there was, there was a huge Siemens factory out in the East End of Berlin. And the lighting on that made me think of concentration camps. And I just felt really, really uncomfortable. Because it was all cobbled surfaces, the light shining back off, and it was like, big, you know, search lights down on you, as you're across in the space to go and see there were some various art galleries in there. I just felt really, really uncomfortable there. I couldn't put my, you know, my finger on what it was. But I think it was something to do with that. I was just I could not shake that history and knowing about it.

John Foster
I think that's really interesting because obviously I say at the end of the day as much as its buildings, its people you know, a city is its people because otherwise none of us would exist it would all be superfluous, you know, the buildings, the bridges, the roads, what have you.
So you know, as much as there's the famous saying, you know, about you know, Glasgow built the Clyde and the Clyde built Glasgow, I think you could also extrapolate from that and say you know, people made Glasgow and Glasgow made its people, there's an essence to a building somehow incorporates its entire history about the people that have been the other things that have happened that gets into somehow it gets ingrained into the stonework, the fabric and you can pick up on it.

Niall Murphy
As Winston Churchill said, you know, you shape your buildings and the buildings shape you which is actually talking about the debating chamber in the House of Commons there should restore it.

John Foster
Nature in nutshell, invite, you know, what, what, what, what influences you, so yeah…

Niall Murphy
Pretty much. Okay. Thank you very much to both of you, Ali and John. That's been a really, really interesting and informative discussion. And if all of our listeners enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to follow the hashtag #IfGlasgowsWallsCouldTalk. Thank you very much.

John Foster
Thank you very much, Niall.

Niall Murphy
It's a pleasure both of you.

I would like to see on a mural, real people from the multicultural community of Pollokshields on a gable end on Albert Drive as there is nothing reflecting the diversity of the community.

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation and conservation of Glasgow's historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website at glasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media @GlasgowHeritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust. This podcast is kindly sponsored by the National Trust for Scotland and supported by Tunnock's.