What strikes me about Mackintosh is a lot of the materials going through that whole experience of rebuilding the library and looking at things like that after the fire. It It was like looking at the various materials, and some of them were quite humble, but it's the artistry with which he puts all of that together. So seeing it in pieces would be quite fascinating because it would be completely different from having that kind of amazing spatial experience, how he brings all these parts together and really is able to define his Absolutely.

And and also because it's not, like, perfect and mathematical in any way, shape, or form, and that will be something they did discover through trying to figure out what it would take to reconstruct those rooms as well, back in the back with the tea rooms. You know, this was very true of the library as it's not like these were equally measured planks of board that made up the ceilings and the floors and everything. They were they were made to measure as the project went along.

Okay, everyone. Welcome to series 3 of If Glasgow's Walls Could Talk. And, today, we are talking to Robyne Calvert about Charles Rennie Mackintosh and the Mac. Robyne is the author of The Mac, Charles Rennie Mackintosh and the Glasgow School of Art, and tantalisingly, our conversation is taking place in early March 2024, and Robyne's book is due for publication in April 2024, so it's not yet back from the printers. But we do already know it is a labour of love whose appearance may stir many emotions in a city still suffering from the impact of the fire that destroyed the Mac So, Robyne, tell me a little bit about yourself.

I have been living here for, going on a 18 years. I came here to do a master's degree at the University of Glasgow. I had been, previously doing a master's in in Oregon, and and I, I decided that I wanted to write about, the the tea rooms because I had discovered, the four in a in a design history class and had never seen them in my life and thought they were very exciting. And so I got lucky enough to be able to move here and do a second master's in decorative arts and design history at Glasgow and decided to write about, Margaret Macdonald's gesso panels. And then, I just stayed to do my PhD, which was inspired by how the four dressed.

I was curious about Mackintosh's floppy bow tie and Margaret Macdonald's clothes. So I did that. I wrote about how artists dressed, in the Victorian era. And, then because, I guess, I got this little Mackintosh niche, I started out as a lecturer in Architecture Architectural history and Design history at the Glasgow School of Art. And then after, the 2014 fire, I was appointed, the Mackintosh research fellow there, and I I worked on the projects there.

Let's kinda go back to the fires. So, you know, the first of these fires is is almost exactly 10 years ago now. It's just coming up. The anniversary is gonna be in Yeah. May, which is astonishing to think about because it just seems like the other day it happened.

It's, you know, 1 of these things, it's like A Princess Diana or a JFK moment. It's one of those things. If you know the Mac and, you know, you know that context, it was such a shock. So, you know, that was the first of the fire. And so at that point, you were kind of researching and teaching at the Glasgow School of Art, and you were you know, you'd experienced things like that fabulous library.

And then you became part of this team of expert after after that fire 10 years ago. So advising on the the the restoration work, which, you know, obviously with my, Glasgow City Heritage Trust hat on, we were assisting with some funding for that. So, you know, we were very conscious of what was going on with that that team as well. And, you know, we're acutely conscious of how painstaking your approach was to the whole thing and how you were all trying to kind of keep this concealed as it were to have this kind of beautiful reveal, and then how thwarted that that was by what happened with the the second fire in June 2018.

Can I come in on a couple of those things? Abs absolutely. Okay. Just first of all, because because the one thing I'm very conscious of is I do feel in many ways, I was an active participant, but I do feel like I was very much a bystander, and I was not one of the key people who did all the amazing work. And I'm I'm very I wanna be because I'm I've had the great privilege to write this book, but, you know, one of the key things about it was making sure that people know that, really, I was writing about other people's work and voices.

So just to kinda go back to the first fire, I was a I was a lecturer there at the time, and I was at home. I mean, I think we all can do a tell a story about where were you, like you say, when that happened. You remember? And I remember I was sitting at home, and I was, like, you know, texting with people on the ground. And a good friend who was in the comms team at the time, Claire Biddle, so she was like and I have to confess.

The first thing I said was, is the gesso panel okay? Before I knew it was climbing to the library, the fire, and she was she was like, it's out. I think it was one of the first things the fire services ripped off the wall. So, yeah, it is quite shocking that it was it was 10 years ago. And so, you know, the the but the spirit of right after it happened, you know, everyone in the school was pitching in and going in and recovering, you know, items from the building.

Obviously, there was the student work that was affected. I was in, like, two days afterwards, with the archives and recovery team because I have museum hand object handling experience and background. So I was actually working with archives and collections, literally unpacking every object from the collection to see if it was wet and then setting it to dry out. And I have to say that that, for me, personally, was an extraordinary experience to be able to help, you know, protect the objects in the archive, but to actually just see all the stuff. Literally, you had to unpack everything and make sure because there would you'd have a whole box that was dry, and then you'd open it up and somehow it was wet inside.

And so you had to make sure all the objects anyway. So so there was that kind of thing. And then I did start talking to people about, you know, there's a huge project here, and and someone's gonna need to kinda capture what's happening in the research of it. Not I didn't think I was personally in any way qualified to, you know, be the person to say, here's how you fix it. You know, but that that there would be some kind of extraordinary project.

So I I did kind of pitch the idea of there being a research fellow, but there was a lot of internal, you know, decision making that had to happen, and then there had to be a post made. I had to interview for it, the whole thing. So, when I came into that team, I was very much thinking I would just kind of observe and and record in a way, and pitch in where I could. And it was and this is something I say in the book, actually. The first time I got to go to a design team meeting after the team was appointed and Paige Park was appointed, and

Mhmm.

I was sitting in the back in the back of the room taking notes what they were doing, and they were looking at the hen run that day and everything and they were looking at these pictures of the hen run, from early days and I've never seen these photographs before. They're from our archives And and they had and it had the gridded roof instead of the pitched roof.

Yeah. Yeah. So it

was sitting there, like, wondering what the dates of the photograph was because it wasn't dated. It had no notes or anything. And it was David Page and he turned around, and I didn't even realize he knew a thing about me. He turned around and he looked at me and he said, what we need is a fashion historian who can date these photographs for us. And I was like, oh.

And I went up and I looked and I'm look and I'm like, I'd say 1914 by the skirt and the this and the that and that. And and that was how he very suddenly, like, welcomed me, I feel, like, into that. And and from that point forward, I would I just kinda I did still kick back, but I knew that if there was some thought that I had or something that I could add to the conversation, it would be welcome. So I was just thinking about when you said about the photographs that you took and other people took. One of the interesting pieces and difficult pieces of this book, in terms of just the project is that, you know, there was gonna be these really beautiful photographs of the finished building

Yeah.

And there's not. And so weirdly

You never got that review.

No. And so weirdly, although I I'm really pleased with the book, and I think it will you've seen a little bit. I hope you think pretty. But Yes. There's

Yeah. I was reading it, so I should've skimmed it, but I started reading it. So and it's quite emotional.

That that's nice to hear. Yeah. So but if you look towards the end, the photographs are really quite rubbish in some ways because you'd expect these big, beautiful, you know, Yale production, etcetera. But they're the tiny little

The the Bedford Lemere of

the day. Exactly. And there were there are Bedford I mean, so luckily, the beautiful Bedford Lemere pictures are nice and big. But towards the end, all you get are these, like, quarter page tiny snapshots because that's literally all that exists. So we we did what we had to do.

And, anyway yeah. I but it is really upsetting when you think about all the work that went into it, all the amazing craft that was lost. And, but I think even more upsetting is the effect that it had on the community and particularly the local community on Garnethill . That was a massive, massive impact.

Okay. Before we get further into this, I'd just like to wind back more to, you know, where this started from in terms of your interest in Charles Rennie Mackintosh and, you know, how you found yourself in Glasgow. So so, you know, because everybody's kind of, experience of Charles Rennie and Mackintosh has a different starting point and, you know, you you develop a relationship with him, Margaret Macdonald as well on the back of all that. So how did that all come about initially? Tell us more about that.

Well, I had, been working in museums for quite a while, and I decided I wanted to go back to graduate school and and get my master's and all that kind of stuff. And I was deciding whether or not I was suited to the to it. I I went to in in the states, we've got community college. Some of you might have seen in the show, community. So so yeah.

So I went to the local community college and I took a design history course because I'd also, started I did some work as a designer in that period and kinda got was getting interested in design history. And, it was just a basic design history course, and and I and in the course, and all the wonderful poster art and, you know, Art Nouveau and everything, said

that

these Scottish artists show up, which I, like I said, I'd never seen before in a in a very stupid way was, like, you know, there's art in Scotland. Like, you don't you know, it is that horrific tartan fantasy garbage, which I think, you know, I can say this I can say this as an American, you know, is the perception. That, you know, it's it's a vibe. And and that now I know obviously is completely ridiculous and lacking in in the huge the bigger context. So but I was.

I was just absolutely to be honest, I just thought it was beautiful. I mean and, you know, it's kind of as art historians, you're, you know, you're supposed to be critical and that's not because something's pretty is not anyway, like, there's a reason you're called to something in the first place. There's something that speaks to you. Yeah. And it was actually the posters was the first thing I ever saw.

Like, the musical review poster and the Jerico poster, was that first slide. And I was like, what is this? And then they showed the tea rooms, and I'm like, what is this? You know? So, yeah.

So I got some fun I decided I wanted to learn more, and I I kind of looked, and there wasn't, like, loads of stuff published on it. This was early 2000, really. I mean, there's some great works out there, but and, you know, if you compare it to something like, you know, Picasso or Frida Kahlo, there's, like, 80,000,000 , bucks. You know? So, yeah, I just decided I wanted to learn more and write about that, and and I chose it as project of my thesis.

And then I got funding to come to Scotland to do the research and, at the same time, realized that that I could come study here and go further. And so that's kind of that that's that ended up being what I did, and I got quite lucky and had mentors who are great scholars in the community. And yeah.

So what what was it like kind of come come to Glasgow from from the States? What was that experience of kind of seeing seeing both Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald's work, you know, in real life?

The first thing I saw because we got in on a flight in the late afternoon, and and I had all these various appointments for the next day. And the first thing I saw was the west elevation of the art school. I took a walk that evening, and my my friend who had been here before walked me kind of around the corner. And he's like, let's just go up the hill here. And I was like, alright.

And then all of a sudden, it was there. And, dearly, I still have the photograph I took, which was now on, like, a really hazy like, it's low resolution weird kinda thing. But, yeah, there it was. And and that was really exciting to see the building from the outside. I I remember, obviously, going to see the gesso panels in the Kelvingrove was fantastic.

But I I'll say the coolest experience I had, I had gotten in touch with Alison Brown, who is the curator of European Art at Glasgow Museums, as you know, but not not everyone might know that. Yes. And at the time, they were doing the projects up in Maryhill where they had all the pieces of the Ingram Street Tea Room laid out and they were cataloging it and measuring it to see what it would take to reconstruct it. She had a grant to do this. And fast forward to now, this is why we've got The Oak Room at the V and A Dundee.

That's one of the results of that years later. But at the time, it was laid out in bits, and she invited me up to Maryhill to literally so I saw Mackintosh in pieces lying on a floor in a warehouse. And in fact, Helen Kendrick, who we both know, who used to work for GCAT, was working on the project at the time there before I ever met Helen. She must have been there that day. So it was amazing actually, but I had a really weird privileged view of, like, Mackintosh and Pieces being one of the first Mackintosh things I ever saw laying on a floor.

That must be abs absolutely fascinating. I mean, what strikes me about Mackintosh is, a lot of the materials I mean, this was what was interesting and going through that whole experience of, you know, rebuilding the library and looking at things like that after the fire. It was like looking at the the various materials, and some of them are quite humble. But it's it's the it's the artistry with which he puts all of that together. So seeing it in pieces would be quite fascinating because it would be completely different from having that kind of amazing spatial experience, how he brings all these parts together and really is able to define his piece.

Absolutely. And and also because, and now this is something I know from the work that well, other people did on the back, and I I learned from it. It's not, like, perfect and mathematical in any way, shape, or form, and that will be something they did discover through trying to figure out what it would take to reconstruct those rooms as well, back in the back with the tea rooms. You know, this was very true of the library as it's not like these were equally measured planks of board that made up the ceilings and the floors and everything. They were they were made to measure as the project went along.

So, you know, some of them make a lot of sense and are everything, but the working out of the maths of how these things you know, in order to reconstruct it and and especially in the case at least at least with the tearooms, you know, they had dismantled everything in pieces, and I think they were fairly carefully marked and cataloged. But it was still like they had all the pieces of a big puzzle to put back together. Yeah. The library, the pieces were mostly ash.

So Yeah. Yeah. How do how on earth do you figure out how? I mean, it's lucky that that space has been so well documented by, you know, various people, Paul Clark being one of them, you know, in in a whole series of drawings. So in some ways, it's quite a well recorded room,

but The however on that though is, if I could just say, the however on that though is is that Paul did the yeah. Paul's drawings were very, very important. There's a little note to them in the book and, and loves people. But what we found really quickly is there's a million or more photographs of the room and 0 photographs of, like, the corner of the room. The the dark areas that notice you have the same Yep.

Photograph a million times, but the real key areas that you needed to know, there's no details of them at

all. Missing.

Yeah. Totally missing.

Yes. Yeah. And it's funny as well people's interpretation of the space over time because I always just thought that things like the stair was part of the library. Because all the times that I was at Mac, that stair was there. So I just assumed that, well, that was part of Mackintosh's design, then discovered that actually, that was completely wrong.

It had only been installed in the 1950s . It's like, okay. That's a revelation. And the same with the windows.

Yeah. The windows had changed.

But they weren't. Yeah. Yeah. The windows had changed.

Debates that happened around, you know, what to reinstate, and, you know, do we put those stairs back? And the and and I was quite pleased the decision was no because it wasn't used in the same way. Yes. And,

Yes. Yeah.

Absolutely. Even going back to, it being a library that was to be used again, which was the intention, a kind of special collection space, you could still use the outside stairwell to access the mezzanine as as was intended in the first place. The the debate I became really interested in in a super nerdy way was about the librarian's box that was in the corner of the room, the office. Mhmm. Because I'm not gonna name names.

But when I say architects, I don't mean Paige Parker people on that team. I mean, some of our advisory panel people. Were really arguing very strongly for that box not to be there. And they fully believe that Mackintosh hated that box and didn't want it there because it didn't show up in the Bedford Lemere photographs. But the thing is he did design that box.

It it wasn't in the original drawings, but he did design it at the request of the librarian who said, well, we need an office. And so at first, he put it kind of in the center of the room, and then they said there's not enough light then, and they moved it to the corner. So there was this case being made, well, Mackintosh didn't want it there, so we shouldn't put it back. But then I was on the team of which a lot of design team were like, well, but but he built it. Though it was there when it it opened, but it's not in the Bedford Lemere photographs.

And then because of this is one of the small research bits I had done, I'm like, those photographs were taken before the room was finished because if you look at them at the furniture package, the the shelf on the magazine rack is not there. The chairs are there, but the tables aren't there. And we have one of the things about the GSA is and the reason all of this can be done is they're pack rats, and we had all the bills from the delivery of the furniture package and I could literally see October the desk and chairs were delivered. October the desk was delivered. In November, the magazine rack and the tables were delivered.

That means Bedford Lemere came between these two dates to take the photograph. Oh, and the library box was delivered later also. So it was literally the evidence was there that they were just taken before it was installed. Not that with Mackintosh was like, take it now. I hate that box.

So

I've been forced to do it against my will.

Yes. I do. So and that's a really challenging thing too because there's so many people who wanted Mackintosh wouldn't have wanted that. And I'm like, where's your Ouija board? You know?

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. These fun debates around that. And I think it's hard for architects as well clearly because, you know, there's stuff that he wanted to do that he couldn't achieve because of the technology.

The hen runs the classic example. Like, he you know, that gridded roof failed. That's why it became a pitched roof. But now we can build it so it won't fail. You know?

And, and so yeah. It is I think you're right. He did make things. He made things beautiful where they had to be apparent. What if he could have hidden them in some way to have a cleaner line or something?

Maybe, but that's not what he did.

Exactly. It's not what he actually did. So, yeah, I know. I thought I was I thought I was interesting in philosophical terms, and I thought actually might be a little bit too purist, but it was but he's he always seems to be a pragmatist in how he designs stuff, so that was interesting to me. Anyway, just to go back to you and the book.

So it's getting published by Yale, and it's due for a release in April. So the book's gonna address all these controversies arising from The Second Fire. Tell us how the book came about.

Like I said, I I think we were you know, as a researcher, I always thought, well, my job is going to be to make sure that we capture what happens here. And also, just to say, it was also to encourage other people to engage with it too. It wasn't just about me and my doing this. It was trying to get other people, whether it was internally at GSA or external friends and partners to to engage with, what was going on. So it it did just come about, I think, in the way I don't say the way the way these things do of I had planned to do this and and got in conversation with a couple publishers through various connections.

And, Yale was very keen. And, you know, speaking as an academic and art historian, Yale's the dream. That is, you know, one of the great publishers of art and architecture, particularly British art and architecture. So, yeah, they they I mean, I had to still write the proposal and do all the things and have it reviewed and go through all the proper channels, and it's all, you know, all the things. So so I just like I said, I was I was, you know, capturing things and and making lots of notes.

And it it was a very difficult project, to say the least. And I I don't mean that in any kind of, you know but obviously, you know, you're writing something to be a celebration and then it it's it's destroyed. And Yes. Yeah. Yale have been absolutely phenomenal in their support and understanding.

Like, they were just like, right. What do you wanna do? And I'm like, well

Right. Okay.

I think there's still a story here to be told, but I just don't know what it is at this moment. They're like, right. Okay. Well, come back to us. Like, you know, obviously, take some space.

Come back to us, etcetera. And I was very keen that it didn't become well, at first, I was you know, we were all very emotionally affected by the second fire. And I was like, this is not going to be a eulogy because we are going to rebuild. You know? And the thing is, I had a I had a not tote not unique perspective, but a particular perspective because I've been worked so closely with the project.

I knew a 100% it could be rebuilt from from go. Like, I knew that we knew we knew enough to do it, and particularly, the team that had worked on it knew that building better than anyone ever has. And it was just, could we do it? Could you do it financially? Or and, also, immediately, was was it even gonna be anything left?

I mean, watching it rage. Yeah. We it Yeah. Just you just knew it was gonna be completely gutted. So was it going to be Yeah.

So destroyed that the only reasonable thing to do would be to level it? That was the worry. Mhmm. Mhmm.

I didn't realize until I was about reading the introduction to the book, that he'd actually been there witnessing the fire, which was horrendous. I mean, I got I got woken up in, like, 4 o'clock in the morning

Yeah.

And, you know, kind of shown an image from the BBC. So you're not gonna believe there's been other fire. And I was like, no. No. No.

That must be that must

be that. You know, Neil, I wasn't. I I wasn't down there, actually. I I was awake when it it had happened, and I was being sent pictures immediately. And and at first, I didn't think it was real.

I was like, nah. That's a joke. Someone's photoshopped that. Like and then it was like, no look. And I was and then, like I said in the beginning, rather silly it was rather silly.

I ran to Twitter, and then it was Sam Heughan from Outlander who was, like, Mac on fire. That's the first tweet I saw, which was, like, what is happening right now? I didn't go I could have gone down. In hindsight, I kinda wish I had. And that day was graduation day, and I just got home actually.

And I wasn't home long. And I wish I'd gone down because I know now that other people did and they were on the roof of the Blythswood building watching it. And I I wish I had been down there with them because of the kinda solidarity. I didn't go though because I thought I'd be in the way, honestly. I was like, I'm not a person who is needed there now in a crisis.

Like, the people who are needed in the crisis are there. They're on their way. They're go because the person who messaged me the picture was like, we need to call someone. I'm like, they're on their way. Like, there's no if you're seeing this now, like, they're already on their way.

And all I would be doing my view this is just me personally. All I would be doing down there is being in the way and being, like, participating in the grief or whatever, and that's not necessary. Like, I felt like it was really important that I stayed away, quite frankly, and let people get on with what they needed to get on with in this crisis. I didn't sleep much, and I was down there at about 6:30 in the morning, you know, and I met, my PhD students down there, Rachel, who you know very well, Rachel Purce and and Carolyn Alexander, we all made a we arranged to meet at the the Costa on the corner, and it was, of course, all chaos down there. And very quickly, we ended up finding people for the project.

And I was getting texts. So I knew people were down there because people were texting me from the rooftop. So I was kind of wasn't there, but I was there in a weird way. So I didn't actually see it, burn live, and I'm that part, I am kinda glad about. I

Yeah. It would have been horrendously emotional for you. I mean, just I think

it was. And it it what I've said about it and I don't this sounds really dramatic. And like you said, I know I've written, like, an emotional thing, but that night, I I just remember I the feeling I felt was despair. And that's not an emotion that I that's not a word I use lately. It's not a thing that I like to call out.

I'm, you know, I'm a outgoing passionate kind of person, but I'm not I don't think a huge drama queen. But despair what utter despair was how I felt that night. And and, you know, and if you compare it to the first fire, I was heartbroken, And I did go down on the first fire. I was standing on the corner watching the flames come out of the library. And then we all went to the state bar, got drunk, and had a really good night, actually, in the end because everybody was talking about how much they loved the building.

It was, like, awake. And, like, the whole community was there, and it was still standing. You could still go in. We were like, oh, no. What are we and then it became quite good.

This was completely different. And, of course, nobody was down there.

Yeah. It really was.

It was just it was it was a disaster. It was an absolute disaster. And, Yeah.

And real real anger on the back of it as well. Anger. That's my recollection.

Real much anger. It was a completely different Yeah.

How how on earth could that happen again?

And I was getting at that point, I was getting calls from the media first thing the next morning from people who I just talked to about the project before and I was like, I'm sorry. I can't say anything. Not because and I I do wanna say this and I was never at any point while I worked for the art school for 6 years or at any point in the couple years since I haven't worked there, I was never once told I couldn't talk about something. Just I'm I'm very happy to say this on the record because I think there's a lot of misperceptions. I have I was never ever told I couldn't say a thing.

Some of that might be trust in me having common sense. There are certain things I wouldn't say just simply because I'd like you know, I don't know all the information so why would I talk about that? So when when people called me the next morning and were like, can you talk about this? My answer was no primarily because I didn't know anything. Like, why would I talk to you about this when I have no information?

As almost as a scholar, I can't do something like that. That's just not ethical.

Yeah. Complete complete thorough.

I think there was trust in us from an ethical consideration. So this idea is about, like, listen. I'm fully I get why people were angry and and, actually, not to say I support it, but, like, it's reasonable to me. I I like that anger is so reasonable to me and the ongoing anger is so reasonable to me. But it was quite challenging to kinda be on the inside and then see how things were being reported.

I was able to take a pause, and then, I was, you know, first adamant it wasn't gonna be a eulogy. And then I was like, okay. Well but I have to deal with this. And for me, personally, the really big helpful thing that happened was the pandemic. Because at that point, I mean, I was like, you know what?

It's a building. There was a I hit a point where I was like, it's a building. It's not thousands of people dying from all over the world. You know? It it puts things into perspective.

Yeah. It does put things

into perspective. Even put things into perspective. You know? Like

Oh, yeah. Gren Grenfell. I had I had yeah. Yeah. Grenfell, made you know, obviously, I was upset with Glasgow School of Art, but Grenfell made me really angry as an architect.

I mean Because I knew exactly how all those interfaces were meant to work, and it was a fundamental failing. And it was on so many different professions that that that happened, and everyone was like, nope. What is worth? And Yeah. Totally unacceptable.

Completely. So, you know, you have these things that happen in the world that make you go, okay. At the end of the day, like, it's yeah. Of course. And I still obviously love this building.

It's a building. And, and it gave me this the time, and that gave me a bit of perspective to kind of, at some point and I know other people from the team came to this conclusion probably sooner than I did, was to be able to say it's been destroyed. I for a long time, I couldn't say it's been destroyed. I was like, even even after I'd been inside, actually, which I went I did go inside finally right after it was right before lockdown, and, the central area had been cleared of debris while they were still doing the fire investigation. I got in.

And even at that, I'm like, it's not destroyed. I can still see it. You know? So, like and at some point, I can't. I'm like, no.

It's destroyed. A Ruin. And I and so it changed the tone of the way I wrote about it. And so it is written about as as a ruin, but as a ruin that can be rebuilt. And I think part of what I hope, if there's some kind of contribution that this book has, I hope.

And this is actually something I wrote, I think, even before it burned it was destroyed fully. The thing about buildings is we tend to see buildings as these fixed structures, as these monuments, really, particularly, you know, great buildings as things that will outlive us, that will, you know, last as symbols of our immortality. You know? Because they're buildings. They're strong.

They're stable. They're built of stone and brick, and they're, you know, heavy, and they're big. And

Yes. Yeah.

But, actually, buildings change more than anything. Buildings change through our use, our habitation. They adapt. They fail and have to be fixed. We have to take care of them.

They are absolutely the opposite of fixed monuments. They change. We re reinvent them. We sometimes badly. We we fill a, you know, a we change a 4 story edifice into a 7 floor office space inside.

You know? And and I think so part of what I come, like, from the academic side, at the end of the day, if you made me pick one of those hats, I say I'm a design historian. And the thing about working in design history and material culture is you understand that design is iterative and it changes. And we don't think a thing about recopying a Mackintosh chair. We still call it a Mackintosh chair if we make a copy of it and sit in it or whatever.

Yeah. But if we may were to make a copy of a building, suddenly it's not a Mackintosh building anymore. And I think we need

Yes. Yeah. I don't buy that.

So I think we have to think about buildings more as as design objects, really. They are design objects, and they change Yeah. And they change with us. And if we can

Yep. I agree.

I thought you might. So I think if No.

I think all of all of all the kind of I mean, it's an it's an inevitability about life. You know? You have to live, and you have to make things work for you. So so it happens. And, anyway, the act of building is always an act of translation because you as an architect, are you drawing out your design either now in, you know, using BIM or CAD, which is what I worked on Or, you know, prior to that, I was at the cusp of the change between, you know, draw drawing boards and, computer aided design.

And so it's always you are putting your thoughts down on paper, which is one act of translation, and then you're handing that to a bunch of people on a site to interpret. And it's how well you can get them to interpret something. That's a second act of translation too. So as long as you've got those blueprints, you can always rebuild something. You know?

And it's gonna be yet another generation's interpretation of, you know, somebody's ideas.

Yeah.

So it's not I I don't think it's the the typical knee jerk architectural response is, oh, it would be a pastiche. It wouldn't be real. But it wouldn't be because it would it would be a faithful recreation. And I hate the word pastiche anyway.

You know, I kind of I I know what you mean, but it what's funny about it is buildings are pastiches by their very nature. That's literally exact almost what you just said about the translation. You know what I mean? And those additions and impressions.

It is. It's never your original idea. It's always somebody's interpretation, and you have to learn as an architect that you have to let go at some point, and you have to let a crafts person or a builder on-site interpret what your ideas is. And you can, you know, hopefully, if you're in a position do that, say, okay. Yeah.

That's what I was thinking, or Mhmm. Maybe it's not, but budget won't let me, you know, won't let me redo it. I'll just have to accept it. And, you know, that that happens, and that's all that part of part, you know, part of the act of building. You can't be that pure.

And I

think that's what Mackintosh did exactly. I mean, there's bits about the design of the pendants in the library that I wonder about. That was one of the other small areas of that I got to contribute kind of some research thoughts to.

That's that that was really fascinating, that, as a wee exercise.

Yeah. Yeah. And also just me as a, you know, a researcher to maybe I should sketch this and try to figure it out. And so I did. You know?

And Yeah. We we had a minute that minute where we thought there's not photographs of every single one of the pendants, and people kept coming to me asking me questions about look. They well so there's a little bit of a thing. They were they came to me asking questions about what they meant because they felt like there was a code in them to crack, and that's how how they could figure out what the pattern would have been. If they knew the code to crack, they can figure out the patterns.

And I and then I Right. Being me, would be like, let me explain to you how symbolist art and design works. Like like, the meaning is for you to interpret, ultimately kind of is one of the underpinning messages of my book, like, without doing the spoiler of just, like, this dialogue that it gives you, you know, as as the user. Mhmm. But, but that said, I was like, right.

Okay. Well, let me sit and see if I can figure out what the patterns are. And I had because I realized that the questions were coming from different groups of people, and each of them was giving me a different set of data, really, photographs and things like that to work with.

Right.

So I popped open my sketchbook, and I started sketching them. And, actually, it didn't take me long to realize that, in fact, while there wasn't a clear pattern in how they were made, there was an actual design that was repeated throughout that I had never noticed before until I drew it, which was the there were just 3 different patterns he used to create those pendants. Mhmm. Mhmm. So but how they came about is what we don't know, and that's interesting.

And I think that's what you're talking about. Like, did he draw out the 20 different hanging pendants around the library, mezzanine and say, right. These are the patterns I want you to make. Or did he sit with the joiner and go, right. Here's 3 different patterns.

Let's arrange them in different arrangements and make 20 of these.

Yeah.

And I'll leave you to Yeah. You know, or he

And interpret as best you can.

I mean, probably, I would think it he did have some more say in what that what those looked like as a designer. He would have maybe had a bit more control, but we don't know the extent to which he worked. And he did work, I think No. And I have to give a shout out here just because the Mackintosh Architecture Project at the University of Glasgow, which has catalogued all of the drawings and everything, is an amazing project. I I always think that if they could track IPs, mine has to be the top hit on that website.

I love going back into it. It's a fantastic resource. It's really interesting because you can find out about various craftspeople while you're at it. It's not just Mackintosh. It's the whole everybody who is involved.

That's exactly why I was mentioning it because, one of the things I did do, and it's only a little bit in the book because there wasn't, like, a load, but there but I started you can search who all the craftspeople are in it, like you say, and see the different projects they worked on. So I was able to see that the Mhmm. People who did the roof of the Mac also did the roof of Queen's Cross Church. And the people who did some glass here did the glass at the Willow. And so you could see the people that they were going to repeatedly.

Now it was like, now it was two different joiners in the two different phases of the building that there's lots of good reasons why that could be. But, yeah, that there were people that they worked with regularly. So So so at that point, you're building relationship with your craftspeople. So Yes. You know, what level of trust there was between and and clearly for a space like the library, one, you will, I would imagine, retain some degree of control and and and say in something like that.

But, two you're gonna wanna work with the people you trust the most to get it right.

Yeah. Yes.

One of the reasons why the the chapter that's kind of about the building itself and and its kinda trip around the building, I called a plain building because that is what they asked for, a plain building. Yes. And in some ways, like you say, what they got in comparison to a lot of the rest of Glasgow, as we know, is not they're not plain buildings at all. But No. This point is really, really interesting to me, and, like, I think we've probably talked about this before.

There's a project there much like Mackintosh architecture because, see, all these people who were working there were also doing the glass on, like, Clyde Bank or any salmon building Yep. Or, like, it's because it looks really different, you don't think of it. But they're the same makers. They're the same people Yeah. Working on the buildings.

And it would be so interesting to pick that apart a bit more and, you know, see who these people are. I wish I wish we could know more, and you are, you know, an amazing expert on Yeah. All the buildings that I'm not.

There's still tons I don't know and I'm kind of trying to figure out at times, and, there was a really good, and I don't know what happened to it, project that was looking at Wylie and Lochead's production, which I thought would also be an interesting part of that too because, obviously, similar craftsmen must have been involved in all of that, because, you know, you're creating these fantastic interiors all a number of of of which were Glasgow style interiors, which end up getting scattered all over the UK all from this one department store because that was was what you could do. So tracking those down, I know that there is a team who have been looking at that, but I have no idea where they've gotten to. And that would be really interesting to kinda bring into that kind of project as well.

No. It definitely would. We need to do this.

Well, it's a it's yeah. It's one of these things. It's like, yeah. It is a labour of love, which is obviously, you know, what what what your book is all about. It's this biography of a much loved one.

I mean, it was for me, definitely. It was a very well, one of the things about it which, you know, I confessed to a little bit of, I don't know if it's nervousness but, you know, you're trained as a historian to be or at least you used to be trained. Luckily, I think we're moving away from this a bit, to have to be, you know, critical and unbiased and you know?

Mhmm. Mhmm.

And I couldn't. I could not.

I could

not do that. I couldn't, remove myself from the emotion. And then I decided I shouldn't because that's what people feel. That's why this building that's why everybody's angry. There's a reason.

I mean, you know, the people who are angry Because we loved

it. Yeah.

Because you love it. And people all over love it. And it it is a building that engendered in people, and its users, its visitors, an emotional reaction. And, so that's point one. The other thing too is it's a bit of a lie that anybody's a biased and unbiased, writer anyway.

Even our driest, strictest architectural historians of the past had a view and an agenda and a bias.

Of of course. Of course. Absolutely. When once you're involved in it, you can't divorce yourself from that. You're never going to be a completely neutral observer.

You just can't do it.

And I felt it was really important to try to I mean, you know, there's only so much you can do, and there's so much not that I think I haven't been able to do reasonably. But I really wanted to, you know, well, one, update the building update the story of the building. And not just update it with fires

and things, but update it from drawing on the knowledge we learned about it from the project and and thoughts that people had about it and discoveries that they made. And some some are my own observations about things. Some of them are, are definitely other people's observations and thoughts about them.

So I thought that, one, was the important thing to do. Two, tell these stories about you know, let other people's voices come through who've been users in the building. And some of them come through as direct quotes. I interviewed a lot of people. I got a lot of oral histories from people.

Mhmm.

Mhmm. Some people who, in fact, are no longer with us, like Mark Baines from, you know, our wonderful Mark Baines champion for Thompson. I sat and recorded Mark in the Art club for a couple hours talking about it. Right. Right.

But I don't see why you couldn't do what you've talked about about making it an it should be an exemplar on how you can reconstruct heritage, but also how you can do it in a sustainable and boy, I hate the term future proof because there's no such thing. But a way in which, like you say, we need to think about climate and sustainability and all that. And, I mean, it sounds like that's what they were trying to do. That was part of the brief. It's a really big ask.

Yes. Yeah. But if you think about, you know, how the Art school came about to begin with, about how it's all part of this kind of reform movement in the UK in order to up our skills base so that we could compete with, you know, rival nations at that time. But just to up the skills base generally, and the you know, what you were getting taught in the art school at that time, it seems to me to be an incredibly good fit with what the Art school should pick up black.

I mean, there's a they there's, you know, a huge section of the school that's all it's innovation is, you know, there, and and the title, it's been there for quite a while. So, like, where you know, that should be part of of what's happening.

Okay. Well, the other thing I wanted to talk about was Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald, and the kind of, you know, the the relationship between the two of them, and the fact that Mackintosh is very unusual in that period in giving credit to, Margaret Macdonald's influence, and her work too, you know, that that, what what is his his great phrase

You are half if not three quarters in all my architectural work.

That's it. Yep. Uh-huh. Exactly. So, you know, the the kind of the that that clear obvious love that they have for each other and how that impacts in their work.

Do you want to talk about that? I mean, particularly, say, in relation to the Willow Tea Rooms where that's much more Yes.

Obviously. See, I I do think that she, was incredibly important to his work. And I know some of the criticism around giving her credit was that she's not an architect. Right? She so how could she have done these things?

But I do think that line is very interesting, and I always like to say the context for that was, you know, a letter he wrote to her, when he was in France. She's in London. She's about to be interviewed for an architecture critic, or architectural magazine about his work. And he's kinda reassuring her that she knows because she's in it. Right?

So I do think the Willow Tea Room's a really good example of where you can see her collaborative efforts. You know? And I I think the the when I teach this and the way I talk about it is to, and I literally just did this this morning, have my under students understand the idea around a Gesamtkunstwerk that when you're making something that is a total work of art, that means that all the elements that you're contributing to it are working in concert to create a complete work. Mhmm. So if Margaret this is where going way back to the beginning of my gesso panel research.

If Margaret is making these key, objects for spaces that really are kind of keys to unlock narrative themes of the rooms, like at the Willow, the the Willow wood gesso panel, then Yes. Does she not have some kind of, you know, collaborative position within that? But the biggest problem is we just don't know the answer. So it's kind of you know, it's easy to go one way and say, well, Mackintosh is the architect, so he was in charge of everything. He came up with the theme.

He basically just told her to make a willowood panel on the theme of willowood just like he told the joiners to make these silver chairs, just like he told the glassmakers to make the bauble, whatever. Like, you can just do he's the director. They're all the the the orchestra members. Or you can say, actually, it's a bit more complicated because the conversation we were having earlier about the trust that happens between your maker and the conversations that you have and how things actually come to fruition and look, that's a bit more complicated. You know?

And that's very true. So then if you add a layer of this is your intimate creative partner, we have no idea. You know, no idea. So I think it's I've always found it an interesting problem to which there's no real answer, but I definitely don't think the answer is she had nothing to do with it.

Yeah. I come completely with you on that one, because I do I think that that, you know, when you when you look at his work kinda before and then after when she starts, you know, when they start having a relationship and that builds over time, I think that she does drive them on to the next level.

I think they drive each other on, actually, for sure. Yeah. I think, you know, there's ideas that I think come from, the immortals, the group of women that she's working with. I think the magazines are really interesting, that that that sort of collective work there they they make together that's full of poems and stories and fairy tales. I definitely think there's a lot there.

And and and, yeah, I do think that the work that that she makes for his spaces is is amongst her best as well. But it's it's just so hard to pick apart. I mean, obviously, I'm a huge, like, Margaret. But I also wanna do it with balance. You know what I like, I feel like there's a responsibility to do it with balance because it is true.

She didn't know how to design rooms. She wasn't an architect. But ideas are complicated things. And I you know, as somebody myself who's worked creatively with with a partner, you know, it's it's such a joy to be able to do that, to work Mhmm. To build something creative with somebody that you love is

Yeah. And, yeah, to that that degree of trust. Yes.

And and I and I I don't like it when we sort of, I guess, marginalise that as a creative act.

Completely agree. It's like, you know, what happens with Robert Venturi and Denise Gover Great example. Still angers me. But, you know, like, how how could you be excluded from the Pritzker offense?

Not on. Exactly. I mean, and the whole business long

of when this happens. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Right.

Moving on to our final question then, which is the one that we ask everyone, and it's the loaded question. What is your favorite building in Glasgow, Mackintosh or not, and what would it tell you if it's walls could talk? No.

Stay out of the attic.

I love it when it puts people on the spot.

In Glasgow.

Yes. Yeah.

I mean, it does have to be the Mac, doesn't it? It it just does. Like, I'm I don't want it to be. I really want to pick something else. Mhmm.

But that's just stupid. That would be just a a big lie. And I love there's so many buildings to choose from. I mean, I I love I really hope somebody's staying in the lion chambers here and talking about it. It's but

Great. Great. Great building. I'm I mostly keep landing on Central Station just because I like the big space. So I don't a lot

to say.

I mean,

there's, you know, there's the Willow, but, I mean, there's also I mean, I love the Scott bill. I mean, there are it does go on and on. And, oh my gosh. Like

I know. I know. I know. See, that's I could change every 5 weeks. Yeah.

There's so many.

There's so many that I think I really like to do.

So many. Okay. So I'll say the MAC. I will say the MAC. And if it could

Yeah. And for me, it was a toss-up between the west elevation of the MAC and central station, just because that is kind of great

social space. Saying. Okay. Well, do you know what? I will

West elevation of the MAC.

Do you know what? That's so funny. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go team east elevation. Yeah. I I absolutely adore the east elevation.

It's so eclectic, and Okay. It's got all those amazing little windows.

It is. It is. Yeah. Bits of Bosia.

And Yep. And so

He's a magpie.

Magpie. Okay. So here, let me answer your question properly. It is the Mac and what it would say is I'll be back. No.

Don't. I can't. III guess I guess it would just be, it is I think it is an I'm still here, actually. I'm still here. Mhmm.

And,

Yes. Yeah.

Absolutely. Kind of, I guess, the mess spoiler the message at the end of what I write because I there's a photo that I took. There's a place I'm giving away the end of the book. There's a place where you can stand on the stairwell going to the sub basement and and it's like you're still in the building. It's still there.

It's still there. It's and I Yeah. I imagine it like a phantom, actually, if I'm honest.

Yeah. Yeah. A ghost building. Yeah.

Yes. So that's I'll go with it. Why not?

That's a lovely moment. Thank you, Robyne. That was very very much appreciated. It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

It's been delightful talking to you. We've got projects to do.

We do, indeed.

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow's historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock's.