Niall Murphy:
Hello everyone. I'm Niall Murphy, and welcome to If Glasgow Walls Could Talk, a podcast by Glasgow City Heritage Trust, about the stories and relationships between historic buildings and people in Glasgow. Today, we're getting ready for a walk in the park, but as always in this series, we'll be travelling through time as well as space and in excellent company. It could be a long walk. Glasgow has a wealth of great public parks and gardens. They are much loved spaces that have gained special significance, especially during the last few years with lockdown and the pandemic. Many of us have found a welcome escape from that in Glasgow's dear green places.
We can be grateful to the visions of the Victorians who invested in landscapes, laid out and planted for citizens to enjoy more than 150 years ago. It was a generous gift, but it made a lot of practical sense. By the 1880s, Glasgow was one of the fastest growing cities in the world, with a rapidly growing population crammed into tenements and factories and people needed work and housing. But as the city leaders saw, they also needed space to enjoy life and room to breathe. So the public parks were designed to be the lungs of Glasgow. But with Victorian belief in self-improvement, they were also filled with opportunities for entertainment and education, learning while having fun. And creative industries rose to the challenge.
At the turn of the 20th century, you wouldn't walk far without hearing musical shows from a Saracen Foundry bandstand. You might pause for a drink from one of their equally beautiful water fountains, and if by chance it started to rain, you could take shelter in the wonderful world of glasshouses. More often than not, provided by the enterprise and horticultural builders, Simpson & Farmer, of Partick Bridge. Magnificent glasshouses are a symbol of that optimistic era, domes of curved glass in wrought iron-frames, greenhouses filled with exotic plants. They were the product of new cutting edge technology at a time of dynamic change. We see them now in different states of survival on our walks in the parks.
In another era of rapid change, how do we manage this formidable legacy? The designers, engineers, architects and builders of the Victorian and Edwardian eras could count on low-cost labour and cheap materials. That's not the way things are in the 2020s. So how can we protect and restore our historic buildings? Do we have the skills, time, materials and money to do them justice? These are daunting questions for conservationists, not least Glasgow City Heritage Trust. And I can't think of anyone better to discuss them with than today's guest, conservation architect, Fiona Sinclair, who is passionate about the care and repair of historic buildings. Fiona takes particular interest in traditional building materials and the craft required to work with them. She is quite often to be found up scaffolding, investigating structures at close quarters. Lately, she's been flying drones over Queen's Park Glasshouse as she prepares a report on this unique building.
So a very warm welcome to the podcast for you, Fiona, and we are really looking forward to this conversation. Okay, let's begin with the parks. So Glasgow's glasshouses are a remarkable story, but they need space so they could be built. So Glasgow has a wealth of public parks which provided the space, scope and inspiration for hothouses, greenhouses and palm houses and the winter gardens of the city. So can we start looking at the city's great spread of parks and gardens and how did that come about?

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, you more or less mentioned in your introduction, the reasoning behind the creation of so many public parks across the city. And it was this sense on the part of the city fathers, that so much of Glasgow in the mid 19th century was being built over very, very rapidly for housing. You mentioned tenements, of course, that wonderful building type that accommodates people from all walks of life, industry, anything related to ship building or engineering. And what that effectively meant was that very few parts of the city were not either covered with buildings or hard surfaces.
And there was a medical officer for health called William Gardner, who on his retirement in 1900 in his retirement speech used this expression, the lungs of the city. And he had been long concerned with the state of the lungs of the city. Now he might not have been the first person who coined that phrase, but he certainly made his point to those who were assembled to hear his retirement. And he actually said that in his early years as a medical officer, he'd been able to walk from maybe four or five miles across the city and not see a blade of grass or any greenery at all.

Niall Murphy:
That's right. John Carrick talks about that too. It's in John Carrick's obituary, which is by William Gardner.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. So it was something that the... It's interesting, because the city was very good at promoting its achievements in respect of the provision of municipal housing, the provision of, say the production of gas, the production of electricity, transport. Of course, we had a wonderful tram system, there were three tunnels below the river, which they seemed to deliver almost effortlessly, but they didn't promote the kind of public promise to the same extent.
So I think the city did itself a little bit of a disservice by not promoting them, but round about the beginning of the 20th century, they began to realise that actually they had an asset in the green space that had been created and they did begin to promote how important the parks were and the amount of work that had gone into purchasing the land. Because this wasn't land that came at no cost, they had to physically buy land. So they bought Glasgow Green, which is the oldest of the city's parks, once the drained it and formalised it. And then of course, they spent a vast amount of money buying Kelvingrove Park, which of course as we know-

Niall Murphy:
With the various estates pieced together there.

Fiona Sinclair:
And they had to attempt to recoup quite a bit of that outlay, by reserving the crest of Woodlands Hill for that fantastic housing by the great Charles Wilson. And of course, there was an outcry when the first master plan, which Wilson worked on with Sir Joseph Paxton, a massive outcry when this was published, because too much of the land was being set aside for housing.

Niall Murphy:
Right not enough for the park.

Fiona Sinclair:
The public were essentially, "I thought we were getting a park out of this. All we're getting is housing none of us will be able to afford." So the housing, it was confined to the area we now see and it was effectively completed, albeit Park Warden of course, wasn't. But on the back of the success of Kelvingrove Park, the city then began to look further south, and they then felt that perhaps there ought to be a park somewhere in the area where Queen's Park now exists. And interestingly, that met with more opposition, largely, I think because the city fathers, they remained unconvinced that people would want to walk through the industry and the deprivation of Gorbals and Govanhill, to get to a public park. So it was more of an uphill struggle for the parks committee to persuade the city that an investment needed to be made on the south side. Then it came in the form of Neale Thomson, of the Crossmyloof Bakery, who offered the land of Pathhead Farm to the city.

Niall Murphy:
All that really fascinates me, because when you see how the city gradually marches up to the park, and the fact that they had the foresight to build the park first and then set out this master plan for the edges of the park and how it's all carefully framed with the two churches on either end, which frame the views. And then you've got this great avenue all the way down. Well, it's not an avenue, but it could be an avenue, Victoria Road, and Eglington Road, and straight into the heart of the city. And it's also carefully thought about and yet the city wasn't there yet. And it was actually in separate boroughs, because you've got the borough of cross hill, which has spring up right next to it as well. So the city is buying land, but it's beyond its boundary, which really fascinates me.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. It's effectively providing a public park for Pollokshaws, Langside, all of these small estates that were owned by visionaries, I suppose, which very, very gradually were absorbed into the city. And of course, when Pollokshaws became part of the city, that kind of brought more land in. But probably most importantly in 1912, when the boroughs of government party were annexed in the city, that effectively brought Victoria Park into the city and Elder Park in, Govan. There's a tremendous map, I think it's Bartholemew, which was published to really emphasise how much green space the city fathers had provided. And it's signed off by AB McDonald, Alexander Beith McDonald, Carrick's successor. And it's reprinted in a fantastic book, Glasgow: Mapping the City by John Moore, I think it is.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, John Moore.

Fiona Sinclair:
And it just shows the city in 1900 with these pockets of greenery encircling the city centre. But then of course, what the city also did on top of the production of large public parks, was they created squares and playgrounds. And there are some fabulous little playgrounds, it can't really be called parks. Warmley Park near Cathcart is one. It's got some of its original play park equipment.

Niall Murphy:
It does. I would love to see them saved actually, because the swings there are particularly beautiful, but they're quite vulnerable at the moment.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. And I mean, these are catalogue items that were commonplace and we see very, very few of them retained.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, sadly.

Fiona Sinclair:
And then you've got a very, very small Govanhill recreation ground right at the heart of Govanhill. It's small, but it's really important.

Niall Murphy:
I really like that one. It's better than... This is sacrilege coming from you of course. But Maxwell Square-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, yes, yes.

Niall Murphy:
... and it's smaller. So it's just too small, so I much prefer the Govanhill one. I think that's a really nice park.

Fiona Sinclair:
And it's a gap which wasn't built over with tenements, which is really, really important. And of course, there are some tremendous examples nowadays. Less so then, but nowadays of back court areas that have been developed as kind of pocket parks, almost. And you are right, they came into their own during 2020, during lockdown.

Niall Murphy:
Very much.

Fiona Sinclair:
Very much.

Niall Murphy:
I'm lucky enough to live on one. So where we are on the south side, the blocks I live in was allegedly taken over as officer's housing in the Second World War and so they removed all of the walls dividing the tenement gardens. So it's one huge space, which was allegedly a parade ground. Believe that when I see it. But it makes complete sense, because when you look at how those boundaries worked, it must have been impossible to manage these tiny little gardens that don't align with the tenements. But it's a fantastic space now, because everyone just uses it for barbecues and playing games and-

Fiona Sinclair:
I mean, communal back courts are fascinating. I mean, they used to be... Well, they provided a bin storage, quite often the wash houses were in the backhoes. Ash pits, of course and drying greens weren't really intended for people to sit out in, they were very workman like.

Niall Murphy:
No, but we can work them into that now, as part of the kind of green lung of the city.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah, exactly.

Niall Murphy:
At least that's something we could do now, if we are enlightened about it.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
Well, let's move on to the glasshouses and the winter gardens themselves. When is it they start to appear? And there's also interesting stories behind some of these as well. Some of them having been built in Glasgow, but others transported to the city from elsewhere. So which came first, and how many can we still see around the city?

Fiona Sinclair:
Well very famously, the first to appear was John Kibble's palace, that we see in Botanic Gardens at the junction of Byres Road and Great Western Road, of course. And John Kibble, he was a photographer. Apparently he owned the largest camera ever made. It had such a massive lens, it had to be towed by a horse on a cart, on which Kibble allegedly developed the photographs as they were kind of travelling along. He was an astronomer, he was an engineer, a fascinating character. And he had built a house for himself on the shores of Loch Long, at cook port. And behind that house, he began to build a glasshouse, a hot house using the architects, Buscher and Cousland. And James Buscher-

Niall Murphy:
They had a villa next door.

Fiona Sinclair:
They did.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
James Buscher built the family villa next door, and I believe it still exists. I believe it is used as a storage depot by the military establishment at Cook Port.

Niall Murphy:
It's such a shame that it's all kind of been taken over by the military-

Fiona Sinclair:
It's such a shame.

Niall Murphy:
... because it's such a beautiful setting.

Fiona Sinclair:
Of course, Cooper House has long since been demolished. So in any event, for whatever reason, Kibble offered the glasshouse to the city. He either decided there was too much in the way of maintenance, or he didn't have time to actually properly use it. He collected statuary as well.

Niall Murphy:
Really?

Fiona Sinclair:
So he offered the glasshouse and the statuary to the city. And he offered it in the first instance to Queen's Park, and he got a bit fed up with them prevaricating. And apparently it was because he had initially offered it as a lease and then he imposed the condition that he wanted to be able to hold performances in it and charge and to sell refreshments. And there was this notion that those refreshments would be alcohol, which didn't go at all well-

Niall Murphy:
Didn't fit with the corporation's kind of philosophy at all.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. I read last night, it's a very wonderful book about the Kibble Palace by Eric Curtis, which is a fabulous little book.

Niall Murphy:
Got a copy of it, yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Eric, of course, was based at Botanic Gardens for many years. And I read just last night that that year that kibble offered it, the city was really short of money and the Lord Provost had to resign because his own company had gone bankrupt or something of that order. So there really was no money. So kibble eventually offered it to the Botanic Gardens, which at the time wasn't owned by the city, or at least I don't think it was. It was owned by the Royal Botanic Institution of Glasgow.

Niall Murphy:
Right. Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
It had moved there from Sandyford.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
And I think they had moved to Sandyford from High Street, from Glasgow University.

Niall Murphy:
Right, okay.

Fiona Sinclair:
I think they moved across the city.
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
Right. Okay.

Fiona Sinclair:
So he offered it to them. It was dismantled. It was loaded onto a steamer at the pier and cohort, and then it was taken to Port Dundas in a storm apparently, and Kibble wrote about how his statue of Apollo arrived looking like a proper ruffian. It was very badly doted as part of this journey. And then Kibble paid to have the dome enlarged. So what we see today is not the original. It's much, much larger.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Yeah. No, I've seen photographs [inaudible 00:15:34].

Fiona Sinclair:
And that of course became the first of Glasgow's glasshouse, these great glasshouses. And it remains the best. And of course it's in the best condition, because it was huge investment in it. It was effectively dismantled. I believe it developed a bit of a twist.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, it had developed a twist.

Fiona Sinclair:
The dome developed a twist.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah.

Fiona Sinclair:
So it was used for performances, and I think Disraeli and Gladstone both spoke there.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Both gave speeches there.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely, yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
So it was used for all manner of entertainment, less so for the propagation of plants. And that's why Botanic Gardens has got what they call the main range, which is a much, much bigger and more utilitarian looking glasshouse alongside.

Niall Murphy:
Right, okay.

Fiona Sinclair:
That's where they actually grew the big palm trees, the big plants.

Niall Murphy:
Right. Because the Kibble was more of a display and performance. Okay.

Fiona Sinclair:
So that and Tollcross... The Tollcross Glasshouses were donated by a counsellor on his retirement, and they came from Adrossan. He had built them for his own use in Adrossan, he donated them to the city and they were re-erected into Tollcross park. And then probably the one that people know best is the Winter Gardens behind the People's Palace. And they were designed by the Office of Public Works by AB McDonald, this Chap I mentioned. I think they were opened about something like 1898, and by 1900 people were raving about what great asset for the city it was. The interesting thing is, it do kind of look as if where the Winter Gardens added after the people's palaces were built. But no, it was all... It's a single holistic design.

Niall Murphy:
It's interesting because obviously that is the East End equivalent of the Kelvingrove. And yet the Kelvingrove didn't end up with a glasshouse.

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, interestingly, the Kelvingrove should have had a glasshouse because when Charles Wilson and Joseph Paxton worked on the Master Plan, Paxton proposed a Winter Gardens for the banks of the Kelvin, and it was never built. And there are illustrations of what it would've looked like. Had a great dome, of course. There's a lovely watercolour of what it would've looked like. So there was supposed to be a winter garden in Kelvingrove Park, but that wasn't delivered. And then of course, probably the one that came closest to... The city fathers, referred often to what was called the Great Snow over the Great Conservatory, which was built at Chatsworth by Joseph Paxton for the Duke of Devonshire. And certainly on record, the ease of the Lord Provost or the Superintendent of the Parks Committee referred to as the gorgeous Conservatory at Chatsworth. And that was an ambition, they would have something similar. Of course, they we're never going to get anything half as big as that, because you could drive a carriage from one end to the other at Chatsworth. But the Springburn Winter Garden is probably the closest thinking to that.

Niall Murphy:
It's enormous.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's huge.

Niall Murphy:
Really, really impressive piece of structure. Quite something.

Fiona Sinclair:
And has a mezzanine that none of the others have.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah. Two story.

Niall Murphy:
Yep. That concrete mezzanine that wraps around it. Yeah.

Fiona Sinclair:
But there were little glasshouse in places like Elder Park. There were probably a whole series of smaller glasshouse, which have gone. So we're left really with the Queen's Park glasshouse, Botanic Gardens, and all its range of wonderful glasshouses. And in Botanic Gardens, interestingly behind the main range, it's a whole series of really interesting miniature greenhouses where they do lots of very interesting propagation. A lot of very, very interesting kind of educational activities take place there. You've got Tollcross, the Winter Gardens behind the People's Palace.

Niall Murphy:
Which has just been restored.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yep. The Winter Gardens, which were in the papers just yesterday. How do we raise enough money to properly restore-

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
... the winter gardens?

Niall Murphy:
Which would be good to see.

Fiona Sinclair:
And then Springburn, which is borderline ruins.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. No, I mean there are various proposals also Springburn to get it back into some form of kind of enclosed space, but it's how you go back doing that. So I think collective architects are looking [inaudible 00:19:36]-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
... animals for it instead, which would obviously give a very different appearance. But it is kind of the ritual. It's getting tough.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's very difficult.

Niall Murphy:
No worries.

Fiona Sinclair:
It really is. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned in your introduction, how do you look after something like that? How do you restore something like that? I think I read somewhere that over seven million was spent restoring Kibble Palace.

Niall Murphy:
Correct. It was.

Fiona Sinclair:
And where do you find that kind of money in this day and age?

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely. It's a big ask.

Fiona Sinclair:
How can you justify it?

Niall Murphy:
It is a big ask.

Fiona Sinclair:
You can only really justify it on the basis of something is utterly unique, which of course, the Kibble Palace is.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
And that's a bit of a harder sell for some of the other Glass houses across the city. But the People's Palace, I think you could make an argument that that is a huge asset built for the city, built for the people of the city and that really... It's Glasgow's story, that building.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah, very much.

Fiona Sinclair:
And that's one that really does need our investment.

Niall Murphy:
And in our oldest park. Yes. Quite.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, exactly.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, indeed. It is a bit of a worry what's happening with it. Okay, moving on to the present then. Queen's Park Glasshouse closed due to safety concerns in 2020, particularly with the dismantling of the dome of the centre of it. So can you tell us a bit about its history and what happened that, because that wasn't the original intended location for the Glasshouse?

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, Queen's Park Glasshouse, it began life as propagating sheds. No fancier than that. Essentially by that point, the city had a requirement for so many bulbs, flowers, plants, to actually introduce colour into the parks, which is a very, very important part of them, that they needed somewhere to actually to grow these. Now they didn't own... Or they might have owned Botanic Gardens by then, but there wasn't sufficient room for them to use any of the sheds there for just bringing on bedding plants and the sort of thing we see in hanging baskets and the kind of movable kind of planters that suddenly appear in George Square-

Niall Murphy:
Creepers.

Fiona Sinclair:
Whenever the Commonwealth Games come to the city. So the Queen's Park Glasshouses were simple propagating sheds, and there was no expectation the public would've access. So they were designed by the Office of Public Works in 1895. It went out to tender Simpson and Farmer, who were horticultural builders. They won the tender. They were built for £3,000. It cost £3,000 to build the Queen's Park Glasshouse. What could you get now? A couple of bricks?

Niall Murphy:
I know. I know.

Fiona Sinclair:
A couple of bricks and a pane of glass. But interestingly, within a few years it became a park and members of the public had an expectation of entry because of course, a number of them would've been aware that... So Joseph Paxton had been consulted on Queen's Park the layout of Queen's Park as well and he had proposed this huge winter garden, which John Carrick as city architect had thrown out as being far, far too expensive.

Niall Murphy:
Mr rational and pragmatic.

Fiona Sinclair:
Exactly.

Niall Murphy:
You're not having that.

Fiona Sinclair:
You're not having that music hall with promenades and a lot of glass. Paxton believed passionately, of course, that people really needed to remain dry and warm. He interestingly also saw the benefit of Glasshouses is from a health point of view. If you're walking around a park and you're cold and there's nowhere to shelter, then you're going to become ill. So that was how he promoted glasshouses really, as shelters. But within a couple of years of Queen's Park propagating sheds being opened, members of the public were clearly turning up and they wanted to see what was inside. So they were extended and the entrance was redesigned so that members of the public could, and then of course plants and public cohabited very successful until closure in 2020 and that was... Well, it was two part, of course. It was closed during lockdown, but the dome had, I think, developed again a tiny bit of a twist. So it was dismantled, but it's in storage.

Niall Murphy:
Right. Okay. So it can be re-erected at some point.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yep. The curved glass is in storage, albeit it's outside last time I saw it.the weather vane's in storage and the framework.

Niall Murphy:
Sure. Yeah, I'm hopeful. I don't know whether you've seen them yet, but they've been recently announced plans by Livable Neighbourhoods for dealing with the junction at the monument that's just in front of it.

Fiona Sinclair:
I haven't seen that. Yes.

Niall Murphy:
So it's all about kind of rationalising the street layout there. And there's a suggestion of doing something with the slope that would take you off the area in front of the glasses.

Fiona Sinclair:
That would be good.

Niall Murphy:
So transforming that and getting the glasshouses fixed would actually be... I think that would be extremely popular move. It'll have much more access to it. It's funny, right? I lived next door to Queen's Park for quite a long time. It took me two years to discover the assets.

Fiona Sinclair:
They're hidden.

Niall Murphy:
They're so beautiful.

Fiona Sinclair:
They really are. They're hidden. And I think it's the way in which Queen's Park was laid out because it was purchased in two parts, of course. Neil Thompson sold off Pathhead Farm. Carrick laid it out. The principal entrance, as you mentioned, was at the top of Victoria Road, that tremendous kind of vista. And I mean, it really is a vista. But then when Neil Thompson died, the trustees of the other half of the park called Camp Hill Mansions, it's Camphill House. They eventually were persuaded to sell that to the city. But of course that happened about the same time, I think as the propagating sheds were built. So I think had they owned the whole park, they might have been in a more prominent position and there might have been a notion that could be used for members of the public as well as plants. And of course, the purpose of the dome, I guess was twofold. One, although these were very utilitarian propagating shades, the intention was that they looked attractive, of course. So the dome would've given them a bit of a presence, bit grandeur.

Niall Murphy:
A bit more of presence.

Fiona Sinclair:
But also, allowed them to grow bigger, taller plants by the dome, because there's huge passion for growing palm trees and bananas and pineapples. And that of course is what drove the glasshouse craze amongst the landed gentry, was this...

Niall Murphy:
We were talking earlier about the chimney.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
Which is also really wonderful feature and also the Pearson Springburn as well.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
So can you talk about that as well? Because to me, it's really exotic.

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, obviously if you're going to grow plants undercover in Glasgow, you need heat and ventilation. So the design of Queen's Park Glasgow is very, very simple. There is a huge boiler system which required a boiler chimney. There was a little kind of office block built out of lovely red engineering brick and just a massive network of heating pipes that ran either underground in trenches or above ground below little kind of propagating kind of planters in all these little sheds. So with such a large coal fired boiler at the time, there was the need for a chimney and there was also a need to feed the boiler water. So this beautiful red brick chimney was designed, which has got a header tank wrapped around it, kind of about two thirds of the way up. And that was where rainwater was collected as well. It was topped up. And it is a very, very fine feature. And yes, it's repeated Springburn park because of course, they were both designed by the Office of Public Works. So why waste a good detail?

Niall Murphy:
A really talent talented team of-

Fiona Sinclair:
Very talented team. Yes.

Niall Murphy:
designers there.

Fiona Sinclair:
And of course there's a tradition histo city architects department.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Indeed.

Fiona Sinclair:
So this is a tradition that's been passed down.

Niall Murphy:
Turning to who pays for all of this and how do we go about conserving and restoring our historic glasshouses. These are kind of big questions. I'm acutely conscious of this having been involved in Govanhill baths which is by the same office.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
And it's one of these kind of great legacy artefacts. So how do our communities in Glasgow and charities and the local authority, how do we go about paying for this kind of great Victorian legacy, which comes with all these responsibilities and obviously significant bills to match?

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
So what do we do about that?

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't really have the answer for that. I think that when you have a very unique building such as Kibble Palace, a very strong case can be made that the city, the building owner ought not to have to build those costs because you've got something that's nationally, maybe even internationally significant.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's a much, much harder argument to make and for instance the case of Tollcross, where I think there was a very pragmatic approach taken to the restoration. It wasn't a full restoration. I think that it's much more difficult to make that case at Queen's Park. So the kind of use of the building supported by a kind of community support and a good robust business plan, that's what typically is needed now to deliver the repairs. But first and foremost, if something's properly maintained from the outset, and that requires, in the case of glasshouse, these sort of frequent redecorating, because such a lot of it is made of wood that needs frequently decoration. If you can properly look after something from the outset, then your restoration bills or your conservation bills at the end of the day are going to be less.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
But in the case of... Yeah I mean, in case of Queen's Park Glasshouses, it's about bringing back... So bringing it back into the public eye now. It's not that it's vanished from the public eye, but for instance, there used to be a kitchen, there used to be a cafe. And now of course, that cafe would be in competition with so many other cafes around Queen's Park. And it's about delivering something. And ultimately what happens is you have to actually ask the public what they think it could deliver in the first instance and what they would bring to it? And it's kind of odd one. I was thinking that looking after public parks, you could do that very, very effectively using volunteers because people could be very, very easily trained to look after soft landscaping and to actually work in a park, even doing something as simple as raking gravel or weeding. But looking after a building like a glasshouse-

Niall Murphy:
It's complex.

Fiona Sinclair:
... is quite specialist.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
And there are not many companies out there like Simpson and Farmer, who did nothing but built hothouses and who did it very, very effectively. So it's demonstrating a need and demonstrating a need that's compatible. It's still used for propagation. It's got little reptile house as well. But the cafe I think, had been closed long before the pandemic.

Niall Murphy:
Right. Okay.

Fiona Sinclair:
So it's just actually... It's this whole story. They've got it at Pollok Park for instance, with the Burrell being reopened and providing great lunches and fantastic coffee in a lovely setting. Pollok House, which used to provide fantastic lunches in a great setting, is now struggling-

Niall Murphy:
Really? I didn't know that. They do wonderful scones.

Fiona Sinclair:
They do have fantastic scones. But there is this whole thing of over provision and how do you hit something that actually allows you to attract funding from... And of course that's the thing that Glasgow City Heritage Trust have traditionally been able to assist with. But you don't have the sort of funds that can tackle-

Niall Murphy:
Not to tackle something on that scale.

Fiona Sinclair:
You have to part funds something that's supported by all manor of other funders, including the community. And there's a very, very good example of community interaction and raising of funds not far from the Glasshouse. And of course, that featured in one of your podcasts last year or the year before. And that's Camphill Gate.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Where wonderful tournament, and the owners really got together and drove the refurbishment of that building with of course help from Glasgow City Heritage Trust and Glasgow City Council, both of whom have been fantastic. They've been a great, great help to the owners. But it was driven by the owners.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. It's getting that kind of-

Fiona Sinclair:
And you need somebody to take ownership of an idea or a building.

Niall Murphy:
Getting that grassroots and encouraging that, it's difficult to do.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's very hard.

Niall Murphy:
Because you need people who are going to actually be the leaders in all of that and have the tenacity to be able to bring it off and deliver it.

Fiona Sinclair:
Like Govanhill Baths.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, absolutely. And the same with Camphill Gate.

Fiona Sinclair:
And sometimes these take years. I mean that's 10 years, that it took to get Camphill Gate near completion.

Niall Murphy:
Very much.

Fiona Sinclair:
And most projects of that nature have got a very, very long lead in time and it requires people to support it, and it requires a lot of voluntary effort.

Niall Murphy:
Very much. Okay, Shifting away from that, but touching on the urban aspects of this. Obviously the Victorians were really inspired by glass and the size of glass's technology improved. But particularly in Glasgow with it being such a rainy city, Glasgow had numerous arcades and shopping centres, stations with enormous glass roof's. And of course Greek Thompson even had his plan for Arcaded streets so that children could play outside without having to worry about the rain. So is there hope for such kind of inspiration now?

Fiona Sinclair:
No, I'm not sure we're quite as ambitious as the Victorians were. I don't think we are. They were architects, engineers, and I guess you could call them funders. The city, so much more bold during the period when we saw the great glazed train sheds and all of these fantastic shopping passages covered in glass. I think we are probably less... Well in fairness, we are required to comply with much, much more in the way of legislation. And of course with glass comes energy loss. And you get this very complex task that has to be tackled because of course, as you see, the city recognised the benefits of glazing shelter and natural light and made wonderful use of it. And really we've come... Interestingly, I think we came close with Princess Square.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Which was a very bold intervention for its time.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah, very much.

Fiona Sinclair:
Very successful. Wherever you think about the size of the structural members, which are much bigger than the Victorians of course-

Niall Murphy:
Much hefty.

Fiona Sinclair:
... would've used. Wherever you think about that, that was inspired.

Niall Murphy:
It's still a wonderful structure. Yeah, absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's very, very successful.

Niall Murphy:
Much more successful in the St. Enoch Centre, which is an ambitious piece of engineering, but it's how it fits into its surroundings. And particularly that kind of south flank to it where it's just blank, facade which is such a shame.

Fiona Sinclair:
It is.

Niall Murphy:
And in some ways, it is a shame if the St. Enoch Centre is to be completely rethought and turned into a much more urban area-

Fiona Sinclair:
I think the original design for the St. Enoch Centre was far, far better than what was actually delivered.

Niall Murphy:
Really? I have not seen that.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah. There were some very, very early drawings that suggested that inspiration was being drawn from the old engine shed.

Niall Murphy:
Right.

Fiona Sinclair:
But yes, the glazing didn't really deliver. And of course, yes, it's not one that you would cite as being particularly good example.

Niall Murphy:
No.

Fiona Sinclair:
We come back to the Burrell. It of course, is a wonderful example-

Niall Murphy:
Very much.

Fiona Sinclair:
... of the use of glass.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, it does. It works really successfully. And how it integrates with the landscape. And particularly when you come through that whole sequence of rooms and that kind of the architectural promenade through the space and to that back gallery over overlooking the woodland. And there's this connection between all of these manmade artefacts inside and then nature directly on the other side glass-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah. It makes wonderful-

Niall Murphy:
Really beautiful moment.

Fiona Sinclair:
Very, very wonderful use of glazing. And so there are some really very good examples, but of course the Burrell itself required fairly some major works to-

Niall Murphy:
Yeah, significantly. Somewhat by £70 Million for the cost for refurbishing that. So it's not cheap and-

Fiona Sinclair:
Ten times the Kibble Palace.

Niall Murphy:
... part that was how do you handle the energy issues of glass and make that more efficient? So effectively had to be re-skinned.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
So that's considerable expense to that.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's interesting. I noticed just the other day a tiny project in which I'm involved where permission was given to double glaze windows in a Georgian townhouse. But the windows, because they're required to be energy efficient, I've got coating on them and that coating is quite visible. There's a colour to it which is unexpected and-

Niall Murphy:
You really notice it.

Fiona Sinclair:
... you notice it.

Niall Murphy:
I don't know whether that's just people like us.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
I think we're too picky, but it's-

Fiona Sinclair:
Because I was saying to the owner, you'll be able to use this for filming. It's a perfect little Georgian townhouse, now it's been restored. And then I thought, but they're going to have to tone down the colour of the window glass. But yeah, you mentioned Alexander Greek Thompson. He worked for a period for the architect John Baird, and he was the very first, in my view, to properly use glass in the city.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Because he is the architect of the Gallowgate.

Niall Murphy:
That whole period as well is really fascinating to me, is that when you look at the Charles Goad insurance maps of the city-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
... which are fascinating.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
And you see within them the number of glazed courtyards versus touch on Princess Square, the number of glazed courtyards which have been lost from the city centre. I just do demolition or just obviously it was too much to maintain them and they've disappeared. And that you realise that once upon in a time, there must have been that you could look across the roof. There must have been hundreds of these kind of glazed in arcades.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
That they would need for part of handling fabric or the goods, but do it in the dry sense rather, but still light them for the building somehow. And yet all that's disappeared over time.

Fiona Sinclair:
It has. Yes.

Niall Murphy:
Which is a great shame.

Fiona Sinclair:
Royal Arcade had a fountain in it, I believe. There was one called Wellington Arcade. There are one or two very, very good articles on Glasgow's shopping arcades. There have been many studies done. It is fascinating, as you see. It's lovely looking at an ordinance survey map, because glass is typically delineated as a lozenge type of hatching.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
So you can immediately spot who's got a conservatory because of course there are some very large ones in Pollokshields.

Niall Murphy:
Oh, absolutely, [inaudible 00:39:15].

Fiona Sinclair:
And some very important ones out the West End.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
I think Redlands house on Great Western Road, which this is designed by James Buscher, of course.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
It had the most-

Niall Murphy:
There's a very nice one in Newlands.

Fiona Sinclair:
There is.

Niall Murphy:
Which is not in a happy way at the moment. Shame is being propped up at the moment.

Fiona Sinclair:
Oh, is that the one by Thomas Baird?

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Thomas Baird Jr.

Niall Murphy:
That's Thomas Baird. Yeah, exactly.

Fiona Sinclair:
That there is an application to rebuild it.

Niall Murphy:
Oh, that's good.

Fiona Sinclair:
To restore it.

Niall Murphy:
And then there's a fabulous one that's on Eaton Road in Pollockshield.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
I'm sure it's happened with that one at the moment. So I've been quite concerned about that, and I did try and get onto the buildings of risk register, but it's not a good fit because there's nothing wrong with the villa.

Fiona Sinclair:
No.

Niall Murphy:
The problem is the glasshouse.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. Glasshouse.

Niall Murphy:
So you need somebody with deep pockets to be able to handle something like that.

Fiona Sinclair:
You do. Yes. there's a fabulous one in Helensburgh, which was painstakingly restored by the owner.

Niall Murphy:
That's one you can see from Sinclair's road.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. You come down Sinclair Street to the and it's on the right hand side, and it is just... But it was restored over a very long period of time by the owner.

Niall Murphy:
I remember it being covered in tarapaulin for years.

Fiona Sinclair:
Fabulous. Absolutely fantastic. And that's really what it needs.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely. Okay, going back to green spaces and Glasgow's special relationship with its parks and glasshouses. They offer beautiful views to buildings overlooking them, but what happens when you are on the inside looking out? Have the views from the park been managed at all?

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, in the case of Queen's Park... They're all, they're subtly different, of course. I mean, Kelvingrove Park is very heavily contoured, of course. You've got that great granite staircase taking you up to the housing from which you get the most remarkable views. So you can't really manage the views from Kelvingrove Park because they're so distant. You're effectively looking to the Erskine Bridge. You can't really manage that sort of view. And similarly, Queen's Park of course, has got the viewing mound with the flag pool.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, which is wonderful.

Fiona Sinclair:
And I mean, you can see the Kilpatrick Hills.

Niall Murphy:
At the same time, you can see how... And there's a fantastic Tom Sandon photograph taken from Glasgow University's spire and the early 1900s.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
And you can see how camera in particular, controlled the heights of buildings.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, yes.

Niall Murphy:
And how rigorous that was, this kind of four-story, tenemental city with the sparks of the church is kind of poking out above and you're not really getting any big structures other than the chimneys.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, of course.

Niall Murphy:
Industrial journeys. And that I think is really fascinating. And yet Carrick does that with Queen's Park, with the churches, how it frames the views to the north with the two churches, and then you've got this whole kind of very level cityscape opening up.

Fiona Sinclair:
Carrick famously made requirements of the tenements that were built at the end of Victoria Road at the north entrance into the park. They also required that all churches had spires, so he was clearly looking for something that was quite scenic. And of course, famously Alexander Thompson completely ignored that requirement because he had this legendary dislike of the Gothic style. And of course he created a Thompsonian equivalent at Queen's Park Church, which was an elongated dome.

Niall Murphy:
Oh I know. Wonderful, and such a loss.

Fiona Sinclair:
And such a loss.

Niall Murphy:
Yep.

Fiona Sinclair:
But yes, view views out in the case of interesting Glasgow green, of course is very, very flat. And so it ought to be possible. But the interesting thing about the views out from Glasgow green is, they've changed so much because you're looking towards the Gorbals.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely. And so much has been demolished. But then you've still kind of this really kind of idea of how grand it could have been with Templeton's Carpet Factory, but the loss of its equivalent, the-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, on the other side of the road.

Niall Murphy:
On the other side of-

Fiona Sinclair:
The river.

Niall Murphy:
River Clyde.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah. Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
That major loss, because you can appreciate how that was this Renaissance's kind of cross facade looking into Glasgow Green. And the two would've kind of worked with each other. And look, again, Matif Rowe-

Fiona Sinclair:
Oh, wonderful.

Niall Murphy:
The kind of complete demolition fat.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, absolutely.

Niall Murphy:
And when you see that as a whole sequence and how it's this very kind of level classical facade that kind of wrapped around the facade-

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, that's right.

Niall Murphy:
At the end of Victorian era. That's all been removed.

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, I mean green head street has some wonderful tenements.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, it still does.

Fiona Sinclair:
There are still some left.

Niall Murphy:
Wonderful little school.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
[inaudible 00:43:50].

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, that's right.

Niall Murphy:
Which is really beautiful.

Fiona Sinclair:
Charcles Wilson.

Niall Murphy:
Exactly. Perfect for a park setting.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. Yep.

Niall Murphy:
Okay. So then what next? What can we learn from that kind of Victorian can-do spirit? And as a kind of society, we face these kind of huge challenges on every front, but lockdown did reveal that communities, institutions can achieve what they can achieve when they work together. So we're living through this age of incredible change and new technology. Are there any reasons to be cheerful?

Fiona Sinclair:
Oh yes, I think so. I think what needs to be done is if there is a building for instance, or a space that is in need of work but there aren't the funds to do that work, it's just important not to allow the deterioration to continue and to prevent the loss of any sort of authenticity. And that's my main worry at Queen's Park. There have been some very major alterations that were carried out simply to allow to function better for use as a kind of propagating centre. But now of course the plants are imported. They're brought in, they're not grown at Queen's Park. They get delivered.

Niall Murphy:
I appreciated that.

Fiona Sinclair:
They do grow some, but most of them... When I was there carrying out the drone photography, there's this huge delivery of bedding plants, which had come from probably Poland. I'm pretty sure it was out with Glasgow. It certainly was. So I think there's been the loss of a number of the sheds that have been brought down. There used to be five on either side of a great corridor. Quite a few of those have gone. There's a couple been replaced by poly tunnels. A lot of the beautiful bridging cast iron bridging along the tops has gone. It's important to just stop that so that if there is a building that has no practical use at this point in time, that's not to say it won't have in the future. It's a bit like the buildings at risk register. Which when it was set up and Mary Myers was in charge, it was a dating agency for buildings. These are buildings in need of an owner. Is there an owner out there? And it's kind of the same with buildings like Queen's Park Glasshouse.
There will be a use and that use will come, and the funding for that particular use will probably come because it changes year on year, what funding is made available for. And of course, levelling up funding has been an opportunity that has allowed public stables, for instance, to be properly restored. But of course that funding wasn't made available for the Winter Gardens, the People's Palace, which is a huge disappointment to the city.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah, absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
So it's about what are the other funding opportunities? And it will be driven by things like energy wellness, kind of wellbeing. And you just have to seize those opportunities.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely. Well I hope that the levelling up front, that it's possibility for getting into a further end of that. And if the bids already been prepared then you know, can recycle it for that. And fingers crossed that most of those should be able to qualify for something like that. But when you look at what's happened with Govan graving docks the other day-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, great news.

Niall Murphy:
And the idea of using green space and parks.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes.

Niall Murphy:
That's a good step forward. And that's good to see something like that happening with that space.

Fiona Sinclair:
And actually, you mentioned something quite interesting, which is if you've got a piece of land that's been vacated because a whole series of industrial buildings where we're demolished, why do we need to build on that piece of land if it could provide more green space for the city?

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
I mean there's a site opposite Govanhill church where the new bridge is being built on the other side, the North Bank of the Clyde. And I imagine there are plans for housing, but it would make a fantastic foil to the church across the water, and that could be developed. Because in Partick where my office is, there are little tiny spots of greenery with trees and they're being cleared for housing. There are trees with-

Niall Murphy:
That's the two blocks [inaudible 00:48:01]

Fiona Sinclair:
There are trees with ribbons around them just off the express way, because-

Niall Murphy:
I'm not surprised if people feel so strongly about it.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah, they do. They do.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah. People really feel emotional boundaries.

Fiona Sinclair:
You really need these. We're still in danger of overdeveloping.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
And we've lost a lot of small public parks. Phoenix Park has gone completely in the Cowcaddens.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's probably lost under the M8.

Niall Murphy:
a park somewhere under the M8 now.

Fiona Sinclair:
It does.

Niall Murphy:
Which is a great shame.

Fiona Sinclair:
I'm sure it does.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah. I recall seeing interesting proposals kind of around the time of the city of culture for this kind of homestead like series of parks across Glasgow, and basically covering a lot of the space, which had been where buildings had been obliterated and removed as a consequence of de-industrialization of comprehensive development area policies. And the accepting that the city had shrunk in size and that you instead gave that space back to green space. And with everything we know about climate change now, maybe those aren't bad ideas.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yep. Yes. Yeah. And I think it's also... Interestingly, it's quite important to recognise that trees have a shelf life. The west end of course, as we know it's got all these wonderful communal gardens, Athol gardens, Huntly gardens, all these fabulous shared spaces that came into their own during lockdown. And there are a lot of trees planted on streets Sauchihall street for instance. But they're getting too big. So there needs to be a sort of cycle of anticipation of what will it look like when that actually goes? What will it get replaced with? There has to be an ongoing kind of-

Niall Murphy:
Yeah. We used to talk about this in Pollokshields a lot because of all the street trees in Pollokshields, and then what would happen if there'd been an accident or a tree became diseased and it got removed? How do you go about replacing that and how do you think in the longer term about our parks and particularly sequences of views or avenues, trees which have gotten really old or were never meant to be that height?

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah, yeah.

Niall Murphy:
And it's funny because when you actually look at the original photographs of a place like Pollokshields, a lot of the trees hollowed it. They're quite small scale and the gardens are very ornamental. And now it's completely different.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
It's a scene.

Fiona Sinclair:
I mean, Maxwell Park, you could see pretty much from one end to the other because the trees were not yet mature.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. I mean, I love trees, but I think we are slightly over precious about some trees in some places and sort of...

Niall Murphy:
What we could do with trees and others.

Fiona Sinclair:
People need to, but I mean, gosh, we could be growing our own trees and a patch landing Glasgow for transplantation.

Niall Murphy:
That's what Olmstead did with Central Park-

Fiona Sinclair:
Exactly.

Niall Murphy:
New York. He encouraged people to do that. But it made sense to set their own nurseries and it's cheaper.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. And allotments.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
The waiting list for allotments in Glasgow-

Niall Murphy:
Is ridiculous.

Fiona Sinclair:
... are ridiculous.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah.

Fiona Sinclair:
There should be far, far more allotments.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. We could do that.

Fiona Sinclair:
Within walking distance.

Niall Murphy:
... decontaminated. Actually could do that.

Fiona Sinclair:
Definitely. Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
So that would definitely be worthwhile thing to do as well. The other thing I really would to see accelerated, but again, it's all down to funding, is the Avenues Project.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. Yes.

Niall Murphy:
Getting trees and gardens through the city centre and really improving the immunity of the city centre, I think that's absolutely crucial. It's funny, I had a student who came in here about four years ago and asked me, why is there no trees from Glasgow City Centre? And I'm like, possibly, because it was like a market industrial city and there was no space for that because there were 700,000 people living within a couple mile of the city centres and there was just no space for them. But possibly that's split. But that is a project for the future. And kind of see greenery at the city centre is actually something really worthwhile.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah, it's interesting. There's a chap Duncan McClellan, who is the superintendent of Parks and produced this wonderful book called Glasgow's Public Parks. And of course it was more about his legacy rather than it was about promotion for the city. But he in the late 19th century went to Europe to look at how the urban parks in other cities across Europe were actually being developed. So we need to look at how other great cities-

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely, and apply those lessons here.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes. Yeah.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah, I think that's absolutely critical.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yep.

Niall Murphy:
Okay. Turning to our final question then, which is completely loaded. What is, and be true to know this one, your favourite building in Glasgow. And it doesn't have big glasshouses obviously. And what could it tell you or us, if its walls could talk?

Fiona Sinclair:
Well, my favourite building isn't in Glasgow and that's Saint Conor's kirk which I'm sure you love. No, that wasn't the question, but I do like to get a little plugin for that wonderful-

Niall Murphy:
Oh, it's beautiful.

Fiona Sinclair:
... wonderful church. It's wonderful.

Niall Murphy:
It's such a lovely setting.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's fabulous.

Niall Murphy:
And kind of all the carving on it is so intriguing.

Fiona Sinclair:
It's wonderful. Yeah, that's a very, very special building. And I'm not sure if I've got a favourite building. I've got a favourite building type, if that counts.

Niall Murphy:
Oh, go on.

Fiona Sinclair:
The tenement. You cannot beat the Glasgow tenement.

Niall Murphy:
I love the tenement. Yep.

Fiona Sinclair:
All shapes and sizes, all colours.

Niall Murphy:
Yep. Massive fan.

Fiona Sinclair:
I loved the photograph you tweeted the other day. It was beautiful tiles, I didn't know existed. Yes. I love the classical Tenement.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Yeah. Probably bad at me, but it's Kirkcaldy Road, the tenement is [ion Kirkcaldy Road. So yeah, kind of is nobody ever goes down there because it's kind of tucked away slightly.

Fiona Sinclair:
Tremendous building type.

Niall Murphy:
Really good houses.

Fiona Sinclair:
Yeah. What's my favourite building? I was torn between anything by Charles Wilson, I'm a big fan. The Queen's rooms on La Belle Place. Absolutely remarkable design.

Niall Murphy:
I've never been inside.

Fiona Sinclair:
No, it's been burnt out. I don't think there's anything to see inside.

Niall Murphy:
Such a shame.

Fiona Sinclair:
But what a monumental sculpture scheme on that. How brave-

Niall Murphy:
Fabulous.

Fiona Sinclair:
... to say, "Okay, this is going to be a big box with hardly any windows. Let's just put a sculpture scheme on it." But interestingly, and of course the Burrell, I'm a massive, massive fan of that. I came down to the Old School of Architecture on Rotten Row from the 60s designed by Frank Fielden and Professor Frank Walker. And it was the most wonderful building. What it said on the tin, it was designed for young architects, the training of young architects and it's still... Of course is no longer architecture faculty for Strathclyde , which is tragic.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
But fantastic building and made great use of light, of course. Whole series of north lights.

Niall Murphy:
Absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
Bays with side lights.

Niall Murphy:
Yes.

Fiona Sinclair:
Great building. Lots of lovely timber inside.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. It's listed now, isn't it?

Fiona Sinclair:
It's listed.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah. Quite right.

Fiona Sinclair:
He listed.

Niall Murphy:
Yes, I know.

Fiona Sinclair:
And a fantastic concrete mural. I can't remember the name of the sculptor, but he's exceptional. As you come into the building, there's tremendous concrete mural of course, next to the lecture theatre. Brilliant. Great design. And great building to train an architect.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Sacrilege from me, I went to the Mac.

Fiona Sinclair:
He will, sorry.

Niall Murphy:
But I much prefer Strathclyde's building.

Fiona Sinclair:
Strathclyde got the better building.

Niall Murphy:
He definitely did.

Fiona Sinclair:
He got the better building.

Niall Murphy:
I always like going to a show him there because it's just quality of light. It was really good.

Fiona Sinclair:
Quality of finishes.

Niall Murphy:
Really lovely spaces.

Fiona Sinclair:
Very, very typical of that period, of course.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Yeah.

Fiona Sinclair:
Of which I'm a big fan.

Niall Murphy:
It's funny because when you see them on plan, they are very similar building types.

Fiona Sinclair:
They are.

Niall Murphy:
But-

Fiona Sinclair:
Yes, it was delivered-

Niall Murphy:
was just so much better.

Fiona Sinclair:
Delivered much better at at StrathClyde.

Niall Murphy:
Yes. Sorry.

Fiona Sinclair:
Sorry, Bourdon Building.

Niall Murphy:
Yeah, absolutely.

Fiona Sinclair:
Which the advantage of scalping over a road, it could've been so much more exciting.

Niall Murphy:
I know. I know.

Fiona Sinclair:
In fairness, it probably looked pretty smart. The Bourdon Building, when it was completed.

Niall Murphy:
I suspect so. But it was obviously a difficult period because it was going at the end of the oil crisis, and they really had to slash the budget when they were building it.

Fiona Sinclair:
But yeah, and also used a beautiful blue engineering brick instead of kind of shattered concrete. But no, thinking it through, I think that's probably my-

Niall Murphy:
Very interesting choice.

Fiona Sinclair:
... favourite building. Yes. Not an obvious choice.

Niall Murphy:
Well thank you very much, Fiona. That was an absolute pleasure talking to you you as always.

Fiona Sinclair:
Thank you.

Niall Murphy:
Much appreciated.

Katharine Neil:
Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow's historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website at glasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear, for Glasgow City Heritage Trust. The podcast is kindly sponsored by the National Trust for Scotland and supported by Tunnock's.